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Weekend/Public Holiday Penalty Rates - Thoughts? - Hardtuned.net

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Weekend/Public Holiday Penalty Rates - Thoughts? 

38 replies to this topic

#1 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 21 January 2014 - 07:43 AM

I'm curious to see peoples take on penalty rates, and whether it's from a personal, business or economy viewpoint.

This article has started the debate (again), and quite honestly, i found the actions taken by the 'cafe' owner hilarious.
http://www.news.com....4-1226806387651

Quote

The Bombay Bicycle Club under fire for complaining about public holiday rates


Posted Image

A SMALL cafe in Adelaide has come under fire on Facebook after making public its dislike at having to pay workers 2.75 times the ordinary hourly rate of pay on public holidays.

The Bombay Bicycle Club in Ovingham set up a sign at the front of its restaurant outlining just how much it would cost them to open on a public holiday. They multiplied everything on the menu 2.75 times in an attempt to highlight the "stupidity" of the new rate.

The bread would be $19.25 under the cafe's calculations, while lamb korma was $65, salt and pepper squid $55, chicken schnitzel $48.50 and it would be more than $60 for a seafood pizza.

After receiving negative feedback in person, the cafe took to Facebook to explain the reasons behind the sign - but the instantaneous backlash forced them to pull the picture, and the sign, after just four hours.

"Here's a quick maths formula. Multiply zero (which equals the amount I will now spend at your establishment) by 2.75 and see what it equals," wrote one person on Facebook.

"Interesting to see that wages make up 100 per cent of your costs. While it must suck to have to compensate people fairly for working when everyone else gets a holiday, it must be nice not to have to pay for rent, insurance, or food," wrote another.

"Pay penalty rates you bourgeois swine!" commented someone after giving the establishment a rating of one star out of five.

"Again, WOW. The sign has been removed. Have read all your comments. I will keep my opinions to myself in future," a cafe worker wrote - but not before news.com.au obtained the original post and the picture.

Posted Image


You can read the post in full below:

"In response to the previous reviews regarding our sign at the front entrance, which was demonstrating how ludicrous a multiple of 2.75 times is when applied to meal costs.

"There has been no disrespect shown to our workers only to the idiots who believe that rates of 2.75 times (over $50 an hour) are justified and are sustainable by any business. We have no respect for those that are never happy and always want more. Fortunately our respected and valued employees are not in this group.

"I can only imagine how much you would scream if you were charged rates of this multiple for anything. Imagine going to the movies for $49.50 a ticket on a public holiday or a $30 taxi ride costing $82.50 or a ticket to the footy costing $84.00. Just who is showing disrespect here?

"We will continue to provide excellent working conditions and secure employment for all our staff and will continue to pay them as per the award. We do however believe we have a right to an opinion and we are not looking forward to this part of the new award coming in.

"And yes many venues will close on Public Holidays when this happens as many restaurants in Adelaide already do because they are already on this award. And visit Melbourne on a public holiday, but check who's open. Not many. Remember that this new award replaces a successful one that all employees have been happy with for a long time.

"It is the employees that will now get different lower rates under the new award depending on which days and nights they work, many being disadvantaged by this as wage rates during the week will reduce by 30 per cent. So by all means don't come back, and by all means complain about us pointing out the stupidity of a rate 2.75 times the norm but please don't insinuate disrespect by us to our employees. Our employees work here because they want to not because they have to."




#2 pabs89

  • Joined:03-July 11
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:180sx

Posted 21 January 2014 - 07:55 AM

The reality is: No employees want to work on a public holiday, everyone wants a long weekend, and if you do have to work, you'll be happy to do it for double time half time ect.

It appears the owner is just butthurt he won't be making 100% profit for the few days a year there are public holidays. Bit of a greedy gut if you ask me

#3 Chappy

  • Joined:03-November 04
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:2009 V36 370GT Sedan

Posted 21 January 2014 - 08:25 AM

Somebody should send him a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance.

#4 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:13 AM

Ok, but to spark some debate, try and think about it from the other point of view.


Not that long ago i looked into a well respected and very popular cafe. However, after looking at the books it just wasn't worth it.
Why? Only 3 reasons;
1. Cost of high quality produce (which is expected from cafe's these days)
2. Wages.
3. The need to keep the price of main meals under $25, and coffee and $5

As an owner/manager i would've only taken a minimum wage (barely more than a barista), and left with only 6% net profit on a GOOD MONTH. No bank would back that considering for the year it only just broke even at 1.1%.

To roughly put the figures into perspective.

Out of a $100 bill in an hour,
$35 would go to production wages & $50 would go to purchases.
That left a Gross Profit of only $15/hour.

From that $15/hr i would've then taken out;
1. Operational wages (managers)
2. Rent
3. Utilities
4. General Expenses.

So the Net profit is only $1/hr.

$1/hr is truly laughable.
(Understanding that it's just a snapshot).


Now with that in mind, let's look at just doubling the wages (It was only double time when i looked into it) with the theory of operating on a Public Holiday;

Out of a $100 bill in an hour,
$70 would go to production wages & $50 would go to purchases.
That left a Gross Loss of $20/hour!

Then you had Expenses.
1. Operational wages (managers)
2. Rent
3. Utilities
4. General Expenses.

So the Net Loss would be closer to $35-40/hr.

Opening on a public holiday meant a minimum loss of $35 for every $100 spent in the cafe.
The cafe was doing $5000 in sales per day, and the loss for the day was $1,750.

Now this is why most cafe's can't open on a public holiday (just like the Bombay bicycle club).



If people want to go out to a cafe on a public holiday, shouldn't it be fair to charge accordingly?
Not so much as 2.75 times as mentioned in the article, but 35% surcharge is fair isn't it?

#5 Chappy

  • Joined:03-November 04
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:2009 V36 370GT Sedan

Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:19 AM

A cost surcharge is perfectly fair, and it is not new.

If you think your customer base will tolerate it, go for it!

#6 pabs89

  • Joined:03-July 11
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:180sx

Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:41 AM

A lot of places already do a bit of a surcharge on public holidays, Hell some places in sydney do a surcharge on weekends!

that does make sense though man, a $1 profit is nothing but laughable. not worth it at all, you'd want to be in a very good location and be making a whole lot more than $100 an hour, witch im sure you would.

#7 Bloke

  • Joined:21-February 04
  • Location:Australia NSW

Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:53 AM

Limit your operating hours, for starters.

Work out your dead days or hours, and just not open. No good flogging a dead horse.

Work out where you can save money long term. Drinks fridges are a good start. Been in heaps of places where there's multiple fridges, with like 6 in TOTAL drinks in them. Waste of electricity, waste of floor space (could put something else there that costs nothing to run, i.e. a shelving unit with some other product line on it).

Being a small business owner myself, I'm not yet an expert, but I only have to spend 10 minutes in places like these, to see where all the money is being pissed away. Frankly, a lot of it is wasted on smoke-and-mirrors shit, to give that illusion that the joint is good, turns over good money, etc. You don't need 3 wait staff, if you've only got 6 tables :lol:

#8 purplesil80

  • Joined:22-January 09
  • Location:Australia QLD

Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:58 AM

A good cafe will make more than $100 an hour just with coffee. My local gloria jeans is consistently busy, at an average of $6/cup id reckon they sell close to 50 cups an hour.

$300/hr on just coffee is pretty good money if you ask me. Take a small hit on public holidays to keep your client base coming back in my opinion

#9 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:45 PM

View PostChappy, on 21 January 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

A cost surcharge is perfectly fair, and it is not new.

If you think your customer base will tolerate it, go for it!

View Postpabs89, on 21 January 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

A lot of places already do a bit of a surcharge on public holidays, Hell some places in sydney do a surcharge on weekends!

that does make sense though man, a $1 profit is nothing but laughable. not worth it at all, you'd want to be in a very good location and be making a whole lot more than $100 an hour, witch im sure you would.

yeah that's true, i have seen surcharges around.

I think that was actually the point this guy was trying to make, it just exaggerated immensely to get notice/laughs.

#10 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:48 PM

View PostBloke, on 21 January 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Limit your operating hours, for starters.

Work out your dead days or hours, and just not open. No good flogging a dead horse.

Work out where you can save money long term. Drinks fridges are a good start. Been in heaps of places where there's multiple fridges, with like 6 in TOTAL drinks in them. Waste of electricity, waste of floor space (could put something else there that costs nothing to run, i.e. a shelving unit with some other product line on it).

Being a small business owner myself, I'm not yet an expert, but I only have to spend 10 minutes in places like these, to see where all the money is being pissed away. Frankly, a lot of it is wasted on smoke-and-mirrors shit, to give that illusion that the joint is good, turns over good money, etc. You don't need 3 wait staff, if you've only got 6 tables Posted Image

Although good in theory, there is a catch with limiting hours in the award wage. You have to provide a minimum of 5hrs work.
Will people want to work 5hr shifts?
Maybe if you have twice as many student employees? But then you have the added administration cost of processing double the amount of pays.


You're right though, there are definitely ways these cafes can save money!!

#11 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:51 PM

View Postpurplesil80, on 21 January 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

A good cafe will make more than $100 an hour just with coffee. My local gloria jeans is consistently busy, at an average of $6/cup id reckon they sell close to 50 cups an hour.

$300/hr on just coffee is pretty good money if you ask me. Take a small hit on public holidays to keep your client base coming back in my opinion

They'll take $300/hr income, which unfortunately doesn't translate to profit.
For every $5 cup of coffee, the coffee beans cost $2.50, then add the milk, labour and finally the cost of the machine & maintenance (usually starts at $5k for a smallish commercial machine).
After that take into consideration overheads such as rent, utilities, incidentals, stuff ups etc.

#12 chris_c30

  • Joined:29-December 12
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:s14a 200sx

Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:53 PM

this is why I believe the american system/coulture works really well waitresses/staff get paid f**k all but it is customary and part of there culture to tip so the more tables they serve the more they get paid and it keeps the cost relatively low, this only works if the owner isnt being greedy and over charging tho

#13 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 21 January 2014 - 12:57 PM

View Postchris_c30, on 21 January 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

this is why I believe the american system/coulture works really well waitresses/staff get paid f**k all but it is customary and part of there culture to tip so the more tables they serve the more they get paid and it keeps the cost relatively low, this only works if the owner isnt being greedy and over charging tho

That's a good point!

#14 purplesil80

  • Joined:22-January 09
  • Location:Australia QLD

Posted 21 January 2014 - 02:03 PM

View Postchris_c30, on 21 January 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

this is why I believe the american system/coulture works really well waitresses/staff get paid f**k all but it is customary and part of there culture to tip so the more tables they serve the more they get paid and it keeps the cost relatively low, this only works if the owner isnt being greedy and over charging tho

Europe is the same. It seems to work well there too

#15 fullboost

  • Joined:21-November 02
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:onevia

Posted 21 January 2014 - 07:08 PM

I get time and a half on Saturdays and double time on sundays and I know if they got rid of this noone would work the weekends and there would be constant sickies . You just couldn't get rid of it now I think as its been in play for so long .

#16 TheApothecary

  • Joined:10-May 11
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:Forever A Charade

Posted 21 January 2014 - 08:06 PM

View PostFlying180, on 21 January 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

You have to provide a minimum of 5hrs work.

I believe retail hospitality award is 2.5 2 hours.

edit.


Yeah both Restaurants/Cafes AND Accommodation, Liqueur & Gambling minimum shift is 2 hours.

http://www.fairwork....es/default.aspx

Edited by TheApothecary, 21 January 2014 - 08:09 PM.


#17 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 22 January 2014 - 12:16 AM

View PostTheApothecary, on 21 January 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

View PostFlying180, on 21 January 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

You have to provide a minimum of 5hrs work.

I believe retail hospitality award is 2.5 2 hours.

edit.


Yeah both Restaurants/Cafes AND Accommodation, Liqueur & Gambling minimum shift is 2 hours.

http://www.fairwork....es/default.aspx


oh shiit.



Who would want to work for only 2 hours. It's almost not worth it!

#18 _R_J_K_

  • Joined:11-December 10
  • Location:Australia ACT
  • Car:Zenki S14

Posted 22 January 2014 - 09:17 AM

View Postfullboost, on 21 January 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

I get time and a half on Saturdays and double time on sundays and I know if they got rid of this noone would work the weekends and there would be constant sickies . You just couldn't get rid of it now I think as its been in play for so long .

Not necessarily. Micky D's has constant award rates across all days, no different rates for weekends but double time for public holidays. While it would be a bit of a mismatch to think that Macca's is the same as a true restaurant/small business, specifically in relation to how many kids they hire, the basic perogatives about labour management are the same.

Pretty much you either work your weekend shifts or you get fired. It's not rocket science if you have a staff member constantly calling in sick. In a sense it kinda sorts out the dead shits from the people with a good work ethic, and there are some people that can't afford to not have those jobs. It would be far more effective if it was an across the board change though, as there's not really much to stop job hopping.

I hate the idea of tips though. Apart from not being constant, the idea that the onus is on me to pay more to the waiter for a job they're already doing (however much they're paid) just so that they can afford to live seems like a bit of a dog move. Really what is the difference to paying more for food. Seems weird to me.

#19 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 22 January 2014 - 09:30 AM

Enterprise Agreements can change things too.
ie. You can work 38hrs/week over any 7 days without any penalties, however to compensate that you would be on a higher than 'normal' hourly rate.

#20 pmod

  • Joined:13-May 10
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:Fruity 180sx

Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:14 AM

View PostFlying180, on 21 January 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

View Postchris_c30, on 21 January 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

this is why I believe the american system/coulture works really well waitresses/staff get paid f**k all but it is customary and part of there culture to tip so the more tables they serve the more they get paid and it keeps the cost relatively low, this only works if the owner isnt being greedy and over charging tho

That's a good point!

Are you two for real? On which planet is the American tipping system anything but thoroughly f**cked. It is quite possibly one of the most idiotic remmuneration systems in any western country. In no particular order:

1. It enables employees to easily evade taxes, by simply failing to declare an accurate tipping income, which happens a LOT. Bad for the economy.
2. It allows employers to pay below minimum wage, with no real Government consequence, and yet still attract employees. Some people get paid such a small wage they don't even bother collecting their pay cheque, as their income is entirely tips.
3. It doesn't do anything to encourage better service, as I have experienced first-hand in the States, it just makes the servers try way too hard to seem friendly. The actual service time is in no way faster due to the tipping system, and you'll reject bad product just the same as here.
4. If you leave too small a tip, even if it's totally justified due to a complete absense of service, you run the risk of being arrested by the Police (has happened, but cases never make it to court) or assaulted.
5. It breeds conflict between employees in relation to tip amount, due to jealousy.
6. It's quite well-known that pretty girls generally get tipped higher than guys and ugly chicks, which really isn't fair, if two people are doing the same work in the same way.
7. Wealthier people and tourists are generally expected to tip higher, and are branded as being cheapasses if they tip the same amount as someone less affluent.
8. If business is quiet, the employess basically get no income, even if the lull in customers has nothing to do with them.

My biggest objection is that tipping is an unknown variable, being applied to something that should have an arbitrary price. Consider a meal. It has a defined cost of materials, cost of perparation time and cost of miscellaneous overheads. There is a expectation that it will be served to you within the projected time estimate, and that you won't have to go to the kitchen to get it yourself. There is simply no reason to have an unknown variable in there when everything should be fixed and can be budgeted.

It's like going to a computer shop to buy a motherboard, then being expected to pay extra to the asshole at the counter because he pulled from their inventory for you, in spite of the fact that you aren't allowed entry and couldn't have actually bought it had he not done so.

Edited by pmod, 22 January 2014 - 10:27 AM.


#21 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:18 AM

I hate the tipping system, however what it is a true base reflection on the cost of selling a meal. (Excluding the fact that in the US you don't have to include the tax in your advertised price).


p.s. natural selection for ugly chicks.

#22 Chappy

  • Joined:03-November 04
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:2009 V36 370GT Sedan

Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:33 AM

I have no problem with the fact that pretty girls get tipped more.
You are tipping them for the overall experience at the restaurant which is hugely influenced by the waiter/waitress.
If people feel that their experience was made better by a pretty girl, then so be it.
It may not be fair, but being pretty instantly makes a waitress better at her job of creating a pleasant experience for you.

In my personal experience in the USA, i have found that younger perkier girls always seem to be nicer and more pleasant to deal with in restaurants. The vast majority of my bad restaurant experiences in the USA were with blokes or sour faced catty girls. There was one exception where a bloke served us very well and we gave him a fat tip.
My mrs made the same observations as me, so it was not limited to sex appeal (besides, perky does not always = pretty).


Maybe younger prettier girls just put out a better vibe and attitude towards customers because they feel better about themselves?

#23 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:57 AM

Confidence (without being arrogant) in any sales or customer service role is a necessity.
So it is definitely fitting!



#24 Bloke

  • Joined:21-February 04
  • Location:Australia NSW

Posted 22 January 2014 - 05:21 PM

We've (my missus and I) have tipped on occasion here in Aus. Not because we were obliged to, but simply because we wanted to, and quite often we're initially politely refused.

Also, I'm way less-inclined to tip if the waiter/staff in general suggest it, or even have a tip jar on the counter. If you're expecting tips, the whole box and dice would want to be above outstanding. Otherwise, get f**ked.

#25 Bloke

  • Joined:21-February 04
  • Location:Australia NSW

Posted 22 January 2014 - 05:26 PM

View PostFlying180, on 22 January 2014 - 12:16 AM, said:

View PostTheApothecary, on 21 January 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

View PostFlying180, on 21 January 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

You have to provide a minimum of 5hrs work.

I believe retail hospitality award is 2.5 2 hours.

edit.


Yeah both Restaurants/Cafes AND Accommodation, Liqueur & Gambling minimum shift is 2 hours.

http://www.fairwork....es/default.aspx


oh shiit.



Who would want to work for only 2 hours. It's almost not worth it!

The company my missus works for (retail) offers 3 hour shifts. The store manager knows she'll knock it back most of the time, because of the distance travelled, but if the penalties make it worthwhile (such as a Sunday or public holiday shift), she'll do it. Otherwise, the manager will just roster on someone who works closer to the store. They've only got 4 or 5 ladies on the books from memory. Enough for a store that's open 7 days a week.

#26 purplesil80

  • Joined:22-January 09
  • Location:Australia QLD

Posted 22 January 2014 - 07:29 PM

View PostBloke, on 22 January 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

We've (my missus and I) have tipped on occasion here in Aus. Not because we were obliged to, but simply because we wanted to, and quite often we're initially politely refused.

Also, I'm way less-inclined to tip if the waiter/staff in general suggest it, or even have a tip jar on the counter. If you're expecting tips, the whole box and dice would want to be above outstanding. Otherwise, get f**ked.


hahaha this just reminded me. I was in europe mid 2013 and if you pay on debit/credit card at a restaurant the eftpos machine actually gives you an option of putting in a tip amount yourself after the waiter/waitress has keyed in the amount for your meals. I selected nothing each time. f**k that shit

#27 Spazo

  • Joined:27-September 06
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:JDM S15

Posted 22 January 2014 - 08:22 PM

If only people knew how hard it is to run a business and turn a profit.

Australian labour is expensive, materials and rent are expensive, consumers are often tight arses, govt and unions put alot of pressure on business owners and employees can be very self important, lazy f**kers (not saying I'm the model employee).

Each industry has its own traps but in food you've got regulatory authorities charging you thousands to comply with their standards and the audits and ongoing costs are just huge. If you want to deal with anyone big they want you to have these accreditation's and then they screw you out of your profit margin. Then there's insurance and a myriad of other expenses. My dad runs a food company and hearing about all the hoops he has to jump through just makes me angry, if I was in his shoes I would be raging at all the greedy pricks and stupid red tape he has to face. Not to mention all the laziness and theft that goes on behind his back.

That cafe owner is entitled to their opinion and that article is merely sensationalism for the general public to get riled up about. If we were in opposite land and there was 20 cafe owners to every 1 employee we'd see the same reaction to some little plaque whining about having to work on a public holiday. Imagine if they earned what a Chinese or Fillipino earned, then they'd have something to complain about.

p.s news.com.au is SOooo shit.

#28 DannyR34

  • Joined:17-December 13
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:R34 GT-T

Posted 22 January 2014 - 08:38 PM

View PostChappy, on 21 January 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Somebody should send him a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance.

go to maccas and get him a sook shake with some french cries

#29 _R_J_K_

  • Joined:11-December 10
  • Location:Australia ACT
  • Car:Zenki S14

Posted 22 January 2014 - 08:54 PM

View PostSpazo, on 22 January 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

That cafe owner is entitled to their opinion and that article is merely sensationalism for the general public to get riled up about.

p.s news.com.au is SOooo shit.

Pretty much this. Fairly sure the majority of their "articles" are sourced from anonymous user comments on random sites.

Edited by _R_J_K_, 22 January 2014 - 08:55 PM.


#30 Flying180

  • Joined:29-March 05
  • Location:Australia SA

Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:57 PM

Guaranteed.
The entire network is really just opinion pieces.

Which is why I thought it would be a good discussion for here :lol:





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