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S13 sr20det problems! - Hardtuned.net

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S13 sr20det problems! 

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#1 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 15 May 2017 - 08:44 PM

OK so this is a very long story that has been annoying me for the last 2 months and I literally have no idea what else to look for anymore.
Basically over the course of a few days she went from being a very drivable fast car to bogging under load on and off some days. To bogging every day. To bogging more than 70% of the time. To hardly even starting and when I can start her she runs fine on idle but as soon as she is under load she has basically no power(getz running on 2 cyls power out put) and it can not spool at all.
Now I've been scouring the Internet for solutions to my problems and have tried lots and lots.
Here is a list of what I've changed.

I've cleaned maf and put contact cleaner on nearly every plug I thought could help.

I've replaced the plugs

I've replaced the pod

I've replaced the fuEl filter twice now.

Replaced fuel pump with walbro 255

Replaced all injector o rings

Disconnected battery overnight (supposedly resets the ecu?)

.....
What the hell is wrong with it?

Only mods on the motor are, fmic, manual boost controller , short shifter and HD clutch. Otherwise just asthetic things like powdercoated valve cover etc.

I don't know if it's connected but a few days before this all started I was flogging her up a range and blew off a fmic pipe and had to drive it for about 500 m before I could pull over and screw it back together.....

Please can someone please help me!!
Thanks guys
Tom


#2 pmod

  • Joined:13-May 10
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:Fruity 180sx

Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:39 AM

Based on my own experiences with cracked coilpacks, I'd suggest looking there.

Given new coils (no point getting used, since they could be bad or fail in a week for all you know) cost over $400, I suggest you try to connect with some shitty Facegroup group like Silvia Republic (full of clueless dipshits I know, but you'll have to just deal with it), and try to test your car by swapping their MAF, coils and ignitor into yours. If the car works, sweet, swap your gear back and test them one at a time until you have confirmed the issue.

Prior to that, you should check the timing and confirm that you haven't skipped a tooth. The concept is that you remove the valve cover, check chain tension, rotate it to Top Dead Center, check the CAS mark alignment, visually align the sprocket timing divots and then count the number of links between sprocket timing divots. It's a bit of a process, so download of the S14 FSM and follow the guide. Google the process too, as there are guides on Nico/Zilvia with photos, and it's good to refer to both.

Quote

- I've cleaned maf and put contact cleaner on nearly every plug I thought could help.
- I've replaced the pod
- I've replaced the fuel filter twice now.
- Replaced fuel pump with walbro 255
- Replaced all injector o rings
- Disconnected battery overnight (supposedly resets the ecu?)
- Only mods on the motor are, fmic, manual boost controller , short shifter and HD clutch

Good starting effort I guess, but just as an FYI, most of those steps are horribly misguided:
  • Bad injector O-rings will make for a rough idle
  • You can just remove the pod completely to test if it's having an effect (which it won't unless it's completely coated in mud)
  • Changing the fuel filter a second time is pointless unless you drained the tank and filled it with good fuel, in case the fuel had heavy water content
  • The battery DC can potentially help with minor things, not major things, so worth testing but I wouldn't expect anything from it in this case.
Not trying to be a dick, just letting you know how you need to approach this type of issue, as it's easy to waste time and money on tests that have no bearing on the problem. Going forward, this is what I suggest:
  • Confirm that every spark plug is sparking. Google this or look on Youtube. No spark means a bad coil, bad ignitor or bad loom.
  • Unplug and remove your boost controller; run the vacuum line directly to the wastegate and plug the remaining vacuum lines going to the boost controller.
  • Unplug your O2 sensor, as it's only needed for cruising, but a bad sensor will mess with the car.
  • Check CAS position. Refer to the S14 FSM.
  • Check timing using a timing light, with the car running in Timing Mode (Google it, either fiddle with the ECU or use a Consult cable and Conzult). Google the process if unsure. Jiggle the CAS loom lug wires whilst doing this to confirm there isn't a bad connection.
  • Confirm that the timing chain isn't off by one tooth, meaning tension was low and it jumped. Refer to the S14 FSM.
  • Drain your tank and fill it with fresh fuel, as a bad batch can kill performance completely
  • Test some known working Coils, Ignitor and MAF
  • Make or buy an intercooler pressure tester, fill the system with air and check that it holds pressure. Google it.
  • Install a wideband O2 gauge and assess the AFRs. If the car is bogging down it's probably running rich, and if you've confirmed all of the above, it could be that your injectors or FPR are screwy and dumping too much fuel. I left this to last as it's normally something you would see following a tune or injector change. I had this issue when I accidentally installed a spare set of injectors that presumably had been high-flowed. Car was an absolute dog to drive.
  • Test a known working non-modded ECU and compare results.
If after all of that you find that that the car still bogs under load, then the issue could be your engine harness. I recall my friend Wizard on NS had that issue; car sucked and nothing would fix it, until he dumped some cash on a replacement engine loom and it solved the problem.

#3 S15 sxytime

  • Joined:18-March 09
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:S15 GT spec R

Posted 16 May 2017 - 11:54 AM

Could even be something simple as a bad earth, so give all the earthing points a clean

#4 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 16 May 2017 - 12:36 PM

That was literally the best reply I could have gotten pmod. Thanks for that. I'll keep ticking off each one of those until I either find the problem or replace everything and end up with a new engine! Haha.
Thanks mate

#5 Dose Pipe Sutututu

  • Joined:19-January 05
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:Boat Sutututuutu

Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:38 AM

Sounds like stock O2 is cactus and your ECU is over compensating the long term fuel trims... I would start with that then work through/down PMod's list

#6 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:30 AM

OK so I went on a mission to redo all the earth's this morning and bought a new Earth lead for the battery and while I was at it I sprayed every single plug on the wiring harness in the engine bay hoping that would rule that out at least....
Nothing. Exact same thing. First time I try and turn it over it does it straight away and then immediately dies. Then it can take anywhere between 5 and 20 attempts at cranking it to start.
I got her running after all that and she runs fine at idle. Purrs like a dream. Revs fine. Can hear her spool and bov open and close. Rose up to op temp and stays there perfectly. And thought I would take her for a drive and film what happens. Has 20 vac and drives fine right up until boost where is either suddenly feels like the slowest speed limiter in the world or it bucks and kicks and literally slows to almost a crawl. (I have video of this if anyone wants me to email it to them)
Drop it back a gear and drive it just feathering the throttle and feels like a normal cat (until you even slightly make it boost.
Got it back into the garage and turned her off and tried to turn her back on.
Have to work the throttle slightly but turns over on the first try. Not a pretty start but she does start. Which is a massive improvement from a cold start.
Hope this gives a bit more info and thanks for all the help guys. I work too much as it is and want her on the road again.

#7 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 17 May 2017 - 11:01 AM

Also unplugged the maf while she was running and was fine until I gave it a little throttle and it just died.

And I during the haggard attempts at starting it I unplugged the o2 sensor but that didn't seem to do anything. I forgot to unplug it while I had it running.


#8 pur40m

  • Joined:16-February 05
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:180sx

Posted 17 May 2017 - 11:21 AM

You sure you havent got a split hose that doesnt open till under pressure
Do a boost leak test

#9 pmod

  • Joined:13-May 10
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:Fruity 180sx

Posted 17 May 2017 - 02:29 PM

View Posttomtom141, on 16 May 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

That was literally the best reply I could have gotten pmod. Thanks for that. I'll keep ticking off each one of those until I either find the problem or replace everything and end up with a new engine! Haha.
Thanks mate

No worries man. We all know the aggrevation caused by a spontaneous issue that refuses to be fixed.

I also should add, as tests relating to your initial starting issues:
  • Remove your 75amp fuse and thoroughly inspect the copper link. Put a multimeter against the pins and test the continuity whilst jiggling them. I had the issue of a cracked main fuse, and it caused the car to randomly die, fail to start, then sometimes randomly start and run fine until it died. Even if yours seems good, it only cost 10 bucks to replace it and keep your old one in the car as a spare, because if that thing blows, a lot of shops or service stations won't stock them.
  • Test your fuel pump at startup by removing the line and pointing it into a a Jerry can. Feel free to get an adapter barb and clamp on an extension piece of fuel hose, as the stock hose is tiny. Start the car and have someone crank it over, then inspect the fuel flow whilst doing so. If there are obvious drops in the rate of flow, try running a fresh 8g power line directly to the fuel pump, via a new relay in the boot. Google it for guides; it's a common upgrade Americans do to the 240sx. You might also want to test your starting issue by running some jumper leads to another car's battery.
  • Check that the intercooler piping (around the hose that originally popped off and you drove with) doesn't have something unexpectedly stuffed into it. Unlikely, but it's worth leaving no stone unturned.
As the others said, the "hits boost and almost stalls" issue does sound like an intercooler pipe popping off, or a split opening up. After that, the rough start where you have to "work the throttle" would suggest that the car is running rich, but a split pipe would result in it running lean, as it would be drawing air from before the MAF, resulting in a lower air reading and therefore less fuel. Tough call.

If you can borrow or buy a wideband and weld a bung near your cat, that certainly would answer a lot of questions.

#10 The Big Fist

  • Joined:10-December 12
  • Location:Australia WA
  • Car:s15

Posted 18 May 2017 - 12:52 PM

View Postpur40m, on 17 May 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

You sure you havent got a split hose that doesnt open till under pressure
Do a boost leak test

This !
Do a boost leak test.

#11 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:04 AM

Hey guys. Ok I talked to my mate who's a mechanic and has a few sr's in datsuns. He straight up said it isn't a boost leak issue. 100% has to be a spark or fuel issue.

So I went home and clamped off the return to tank fuel line. He suspected the furl pressure reg had shit itself and wasn't holding pressure. That yielded no results. We are down to a few things but they all involve replacement parts.
This after noon I'm going to rip the manual boost controller out and replace it with a new vac hose and see if that changes anything. Also going to replace the 75amp fuse and see if that works as well.
I'll also give the fuel pump a test as suggested.
I'll let you guys know how I go.
Thanks for the suggestions, driving me nuts.

#12 chris_c30

  • Joined:29-December 12
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:s14a 200sx

Posted 20 May 2017 - 09:36 AM

Maybe block the bov to isolate it so you know it isn't leaking under boost

#13 Wizard

  • Joined:09-February 10
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:Moneypit

Posted 21 May 2017 - 06:48 AM

View Posttomtom141, on 17 May 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Drop it back a gear and drive it just feathering the throttle and feels like a normal cat (until you even slightly make it boost.

View Postpur40m, on 17 May 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

You sure you havent got a split hose that doesnt open till under pressure
Do a boost leak test

View Postpmod, on 17 May 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

As the others said, the "hits boost and almost stalls" issue does sound like an intercooler pipe popping off, or a split opening up. After that, the rough start where you have to "work the throttle" would suggest that the car is running rich, but a split pipe would result in it running lean, as it would be drawing air from before the MAF, resulting in a lower air reading and therefore less fuel. Tough call.

View PostThe Big Fist, on 18 May 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

View Postpur40m, on 17 May 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

You sure you havent got a split hose that doesnt open till under pressure
Do a boost leak test

This !
Do a boost leak test.

View Posttomtom141, on 19 May 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

Hey guys. Ok I talked to my mate who's a mechanic and has a few sr's in datsuns. He straight up said it isn't a boost leak issue. 100% has to be a spark or fuel issue.

Your mate who's a mechanic is a dumb cunt

#14 Scotties15

  • Joined:08-May 05
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:S15 200sx

Posted 21 May 2017 - 11:22 AM

lol.

why not listen to the experience of NS, most left these days been playing with Silvas for 10-15+ years now......

my moneys on split pipe, somewhere. in the charged air network. intercooler pipe half poped off ?. or somethign i have experienced, the hose clamp cut the silicone joiner, on the pressure side, and it caused all sorts of tuning headaches untill it poped and split the hose one day then car ran like utter shit. then easy find and fix.
and knowing how these things play out, itll be on the underside of the hardest joiner to get too.

#15 tolkaNo

  • Joined:25-August 09
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:Nissan 180SX

Posted 22 May 2017 - 11:35 AM

Hopefully you don't have something internally wrong with the engine like a blown head gasket, s13 sr20det's are 20 years old at the newest now and getting more and more brittle imo

It's really hard to tell what might be wrong if you don't have a boost gauge or a wideband and haven't boost leak/compression tested anything

#16 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 26 May 2017 - 07:04 AM

Hey guys. Run my own business so I don't have a lot of time on my hands these days.
Few things I've tried to do over the last week.

Removed and replaced all engine bay major fuses and ran a mulimeter over them all. They all look legit and can't see a problem there. Checked most of the earth's and sanded a few back. Didn't fix the problem though.

Removed the fuel line and extended it out of the car into a bucket.
Primed the pump and watched the flow. Looked perfect. Cranked it and couldn't notice a change in the flow rate at all. So everything from the fuel filter back seems legit.

Ran a multimeter over most of the ignition wiring and saw there is constant power to the coil packs. I also got another ignitor and changed it over but that didn't help.

I also got the car to run at one point... which once again at idle runs like a dream! Frustrating to hell. And while it was running I had a play with the CAM sensor. Didn't seem to make a difference after I reset it. But if it's running and I unplug the CAM sensor the cat dies immediately. Don't know if that's a thing?

I have make up a boost leak tester and will give it a test tomorrow. Will post the results. Thanks for the help guys!

#17 S15 sxytime

  • Joined:18-March 09
  • Location:Australia SA
  • Car:S15 GT spec R

Posted 26 May 2017 - 07:37 AM

You checked the flow from the fuel pump but have you checked the pressure, it might look to flow ok but might not be able to make a decent pressure.

#18 pmod

  • Joined:13-May 10
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:Fruity 180sx

Posted 26 May 2017 - 08:56 AM

View PostS15 sxytime, on 26 May 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

You checked the flow from the fuel pump but have you checked the pressure, it might look to flow ok but might not be able to make a decent pressure.

This is a good point to add to the list. Get a cheap fuel pressure gauge and a short length of fuel hose, pop the T-barb in the end of the original, hook it up with the new hose, then test and remove it.

View Posttomtom141, on 26 May 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

I also got the car to run at one point... which once again at idle runs like a dream! Frustrating to hell. And while it was running I had a play with the CAM sensor. Didn't seem to make a difference after I reset it. But if it's running and I unplug the CAM sensor the cat dies immediately. Don't know if that's a thing?

Yes, if the Crank Angle Sensor is unplugged, the car should die. The CAS is the equivalent of the distributer in older cars, and that determines when the spark plugs fire. No CAS means no sparks, hence the car will die. As a side note, an old trick people would do with distributers when parking somewhere for the day can also be applied to the CAS, namely putting some GladWrap/ClingWrap between the socket and CAS plug, then plugging it in. My old man used to do this to the rotor button in his old cars back in the day when parking at the beach, because everything looks legit if the thief pops the bonnet, but the car won't run.

BTW, if the CAS is set correctly, moving it to either extreme of the center should have a big effect on the idle. If it doesn't, there could be an issue. At that point I'd be looking to get a Consult cable and check the error codes.

#19 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 27 May 2017 - 06:02 PM

Here is my update today.
We compression tested all 4 cylinders which were all around that 125 to 130 on all 4. Thinking there isn't an issue internally.
We also ripped off the rocker cover and check the timing which looked to be fine.

We then boost leaked tested her. Found her leaking from the boost controller and bov. Fixed both those leaks quickly and easily but didn't fix the problem.

My mate (mechanic and auto elec) was thinking it's most probably the cam sensor...
What's the new consensus? I am still stumped. Picking up a spare set of coil packs and ecu to try out on monday. But other than that I have no bloody idea

#20 pmod

  • Joined:13-May 10
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:Fruity 180sx

Posted 29 May 2017 - 10:02 AM

View Posttomtom141, on 27 May 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

My mate (mechanic and auto elec) was thinking it's most probably the cam sensor...
What's the new consensus? I am still stumped. Picking up a spare set of coil packs and ecu to try out on monday. But other than that I have no bloody idea

I have a spare CAS I can sell you for a fair price if you need one. If you can wait a little while I should be able to spare some time to test it on my car and confirm that it works, as it's been sitting on a shelf for years.

Could be the CAS, could be the engine loom, or you could have been unlucky enough to buy replacement parts that are also faulty. Ultimately, what you really need to do is start establishing a true baseline and working off that. Find someone with the same car/engine, and spend a day testing your parts on their car. This will serve to confirm that the bits you have are in good working order, and each part you verify to be good eliminates one potential source of failure.

You would be looking to chug through a list and verify that the coils, ignitor, CAS, spark plugs, AFM, CAS, O2 Sensor, Temp sensor (not the gauge temp sensor; there are 2 near the thermostat), Earths, ECU, the injectors+FPR rail and battery are all good, finally leaving the timing and loom. Loom is the hardest part to replace, and if you go through such a list it's the last thing you would assess.

If you haven't already, grab yourself a Consult cable and check the ECU error codes. I would assume your auto electrician mate would have done this already, but if he doesn't happen to have a cable, he can't. If that's the case you really should get one asap and check it out. FYI you can't properly check timing unless you put the ECU in Timing Mode via an app like Conzult, or by playing with the ECU (Google it). It's important to check the timing divots on the cams and the CAS, which you said you have done, but to complete the task you need to compare those results to the actual timing reading via a Timing Light, whilst the car is idling in Timing Mode. For instance, the divots might look correct (they're deceptive btw), but the baseline timing could be set to 8 degrees instead of 15, and the car sits at 500rpm or lower when the CAS is in the center. That would be a problem.

Timing Mode is needed because the ECU makes timing corrections based on an assumption of a baseline of 15 degrees, so when out of Timing Mode the timing mark jumps all over the place and tells you nothing.

#21 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 30 May 2017 - 08:11 AM

Thanks pmod. You have been one helpful guy. I think it's come down to as you said exchanging each and every part until I find the problem. I borrowed a spare ecu yesterday and connected it up, sounded like it ran on 3 cylinders. Unplugged it and plugged mine back it. Was hard to start but when it started it idled fin. Right up until when I tried to drive it and surprise it did the exact same thing still.


#22 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 31 July 2017 - 06:01 PM

OK have been busy for awhile now and got back onto the silvia this past weekend. Here is the progress.
Still doesn't run....

This weekend I tested the fuel pressure. Nothing I can't see wrong there. Runs just under 2 bar at idle and dips slightly with a little throttle and jumps just over 2 bar as the revs drop off.

I tested all the coil packs for ohms and power to each etc. I then tested the loom running to the packs. All seems legit and has power.
I then took a spark plug out and tried to test each coil pack with a spark plug in it while grounded to the top of the motor. I couldn't get a spark from any of them?

I loosed the CAS after I got the car running and turned it from side to side. One way dropped the revs off a lot and the other advanced them. Not a knowledgeable guy with cam sensors but I figured this showed it was working.

I got a spare 62 ecu and switched it with mine and was just as hard to start but eventually ran just like the original ecu so I'm guessing my ecu is fine.

Put a screw driver up to each injector when the car was running and listened. All the injectors you can hear rhythmically ticking away. So figured they are still working.

Borrowed a mates standard maf and ignitor chip and swapped them out. Same thing. No improvement.

The car still runs the same. Really hard to start, takes about 20 cranks and throttle play but eventually pops up almost instantly to a nice idle. Idle isn't high or low. Just as normal. You can Rev it and do anything you'd like while it's in neutral. You can put her in gear and drive her out onto the street and then as soon as you give her any more than 1/4 throttle or it gets amy where near boost it stutters and boggs.

I'm literally out of ideas at this point?!
Anyone have any input. Thanks guys.


#23 adm15

  • Joined:17-February 15
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:s15

Posted 31 July 2017 - 08:16 PM

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't fuel pressure be 3 bar at idle

#24 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 31 July 2017 - 08:58 PM

View of the fuel pressure guage



#25 tomtom141

  • Joined:31-October 14
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:180sx

Posted 31 July 2017 - 09:04 PM

Video of the bogging when driving



#26 (Locky)

  • Joined:23-July 07
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:kouki s14

Posted 01 August 2017 - 05:13 PM

also randomly turning you CAs changes timing which can makes car rn like bag of dicks if not set back to correct timing with a light

#27 robbo_rb180

  • Joined:26-August 08
  • Location:Australia QLD
  • Car:sil80 & s14

Posted 01 August 2017 - 06:41 PM

have you tried another tps?

#28 Wizard

  • Joined:09-February 10
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:Moneypit

Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:05 PM

View Postadm15, on 31 July 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't fuel pressure be 3 bar at idle

All Nissans run at 43.5 PSI at idle, or 2.9 bar.

#29 Wizard

  • Joined:09-February 10
  • Location:Australia NSW
  • Car:Moneypit

Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:06 PM

View Post(Locky), on 01 August 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

also randomly turning you CAs changes timing which can makes car rn like bag of dicks if not set back to correct timing with a light

This as well. There is enough adjustment in the CAS for it to barely run, or to ping on full throttle. It needs to be set correctly.

#30 adm15

  • Joined:17-February 15
  • Location:Australia VIC
  • Car:s15

Posted 02 August 2017 - 07:49 AM

Op says fuel pressure is 2 bar @ idle. I'd be looking at the fpr and then fuel system if that doesn't sort it.





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