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sweepa

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Everything posted by sweepa

  1. FUD machine in full effect

    I just wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard something along the lines "it'll never happen", only to have them turn around a several months or years later when it does happen and then start whinging "aww, they can't do that, this is bullshit!" It won't happen??? A similar proposal is set to be implemented in the UK!
  2. Hijacking the thread for a second..... How the fvck is this racist??? http://www.news.com....d-1226481185670 Fvck I'm sick to death of these fvcktard do gooders and all their pc bullshit!!!!
  3. GST on imported items Oh shi-

    Not to mention that good old wayne swan now has a 120 billion dollar hole in his budget that he needs to fill.
  4. GST on imported items Oh shi-

    There is no doubt big retailers are behind the push. they've just been sitting and waiting for the australian public to loose interest or loose steam. stuff like this is always a waiting game. politics is a marathon not a sprint. It's also probably one of the conditions being secretly discussed as part of the TPP.
  5. Pretty long but very interesting debate. both sides make strong arguments. Some cliff-notes for those that can't be bothered watching it all The motion is "That Islam is a religion of piece" For the motion argued.... That the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and it is only a very small minority of extremists cause all the problems. That many Muslims have come out against extremism, have voted against extremist parties in democratic elections and assist in capturing violent extremists even in the face of violent retaliation from said extremists. And that much of Islamic scripture is taken out of context. Against the motion argued..... That Islam at it's core is fundamentally violent in it's teachings. They acknowledged that most Muslims are indeed peaceful but that the reason for that is that most Muslims thankfully apply critical thinking to the qua-ran and CHOOSE not to follow it in a literal sense. (basically they're peaceful because they don't actually follow the qua-ran's teachings. And that although most Muslims are peaceful, Islam still seems to produce a disproportionate number of violent extremists when compared to any other belief system.
  6. The problem with your argument, is that for the time being as cranium stated there is no evidence to prove OR disprove god, by ridiculing another's beliefs or confronting them, you go ahead and contradict point A with point B and C. Debating is great, but there is a stark difference between debating rationally and ridiculing someone. Also debating can have the affect of entrenching many in their ideals.. You can also raise awareness through mediums other than ridicule.. Also those who discuss, respect tHe opinions and beliefs of other before discussion, otherwise a solution is never met, only conflict. How do I contradict point A with points B and C As I stated clearly, there is a BIG deference between debating and ridiculing... You debate to get a point across not to judge or ridicule others.. still waiting for the contradiction????? just in case you don't know what it means. You seem to be off on a whole other tangent, having some sort of little conversation with yourself in your head that know one else is invited too, coz what your on about has nothing to do with the argument I made.
  7. So spongeboy you admit it? (kind of) Someone's beliefs CAN and DOES affect other people, The LGBT community is being denied the the right to get married because of other people's beliefs (weather or not they are religious beliefs is irrelevant, they're still beliefs). They can also effect other people in a positive way, not just the negative . never said they could't be positive, just that they have the power to effect other people.
  8. The problem with your argument, is that for the time being as cranium stated there is no evidence to prove OR disprove god, by ridiculing another's beliefs or confronting them, you go ahead and contradict point A with point B and C. Debating is great, but there is a stark difference between debating rationally and ridiculing someone. Also debating can have the affect of entrenching many in their ideals.. You can also raise awareness through mediums other than ridicule.. Also those who discuss, respect tHe opinions and beliefs of other before discussion, otherwise a solution is never met, only conflict. How do I contradict point A with points B and C
  9. So spongeboy you admit it? (kind of) Someone's beliefs CAN and DOES affect other people, The LGBT community is being denied the the right to get married because of other people's beliefs (weather or not they are religious beliefs is irrelevant, they're still beliefs). which was my argument all along.
  10. So explain to me the reason for the lower house to vote down the same sex marriage bill? oh that doesn't count you see because according to spongeboy that's an extreme example.
  11. maybe I need to come at this argument from a different angle A. The point I'm trying to make is simply that beliefs/opinions matter and they do affect other people. B. As beliefs/opinions do affect other people, people have the RIGHT to speak up against/judge/ridicule/debate etc against those beliefs as they do affect them. After all debate is good, it's how we learn and it's how we get closer to the truth. C. Seeing as beliefs/opinions affect society, isn't it in societies best interests to make sure that those beliefs/opinions aren't based in bullshit. Isn't it a wise investment to try and educate people, debate topics and encourage people to question things? If they choose to continue to believe what they believed then so be it. But we shouldn't stop people from debating things, promoting skepticism and asking people to question things and ultimately trying to raise more awareness.
  12. Did you read the response I gave you to the last question. obviously not. So the beginning.... spongeboy made this assertion - What someone does in their own time and space will not affect others. I was simply trying to demonstrate that someones beliefs can in fact affect others as beliefs (any beliefs weather they be religious, political social etc) affect the way people behave, and peoples behavior certainly affects others. I was not saying that one persons opinion is superior, just that opinions have real world consequences. You might want to go back and read through the posts in there entirety before chiming in in future.
  13. Well I'm sorry, if you can't get it through your skull by now then I (or anyone else) just can't help you. We've given plenty of examples so either you just don't want to except what we've been saying or your just not that smart.
  14. Heres my problem with your point of view; There is nothing to disprove the non-existence of a god, as stated before it is just as big of a leap of faith to say that one does not exist as it is to say one exists. Not really, as I explained in a previous post, there is a big difference between the questions "is there a god?" and "do you believe in god?". The rational answer to "is there a god is simply "I don't know", therefore by default if you don't know there's a god then it's kind of hard to say that you believe there is.
  15. you might want to try looking into something called the lyons forum, then come back and say that.... http://www.hsnsw.asn...axWallace2.html to get you started. you said BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! ​belief affects behavior and that sure as fvcking hell affects other people! and as long as it does I'm going to continue to be pissed off about it. (and off topic, what the fvck is up with this bloody text editer?) Text editor is fvcked, and I'll give you an old saying/question, if a tree falls in and abandoned forest, on a planet void of all life save for that one tree, will it make a noise? In physics yes it will, but philosophically there is noone there to hear it.. Therefore if Harris is a Christian and he hasn't pushed the bible on me, how does it affect me? Does harris vote? it's not an unreasonable assumption to make that he's beliefs (religious, political, social or otherwise) will have an effect on the way he votes and that will have some effect on public policy. And that policy will most likely affect people. Your an Athiest, which effects the way you vote, whos to say your opinion is worth more than somebodies that has faith? I'm not saying it's worth more, just trying to illustrate the point that what we believe does in fact have an affect on society.
  16. you might want to try looking into something called the lyons forum, then come back and say that.... http://www.hsnsw.asn...axWallace2.html to get you started. you said BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! ​belief affects behavior and that sure as fvcking hell affects other people! and as long as it does I'm going to continue to be pissed off about it. (and off topic, what the fvck is up with this bloody text editer?) Text editor is fvcked, and I'll give you an old saying/question, if a tree falls in and abandoned forest, on a planet void of all life save for that one tree, will it make a noise? In physics yes it will, but philosophically there is noone there to hear it.. Therefore if Harris is a Christian and he hasn't pushed the bible on me, how does it affect me? Does harris vote? it's not an unreasonable assumption to make that he's beliefs (religious, political, social or otherwise) will have an effect on the way he votes and that will have some effect on public policy. And that policy will most likely affect people.
  17. you might want to try looking into something called the lyons forum, then come back and say that.... http://www.hsnsw.asn...axWallace2.html to get you started. you said BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! ​belief affects behavior and that sure as fvcking hell affects other people! and as long as it does I'm going to continue to be pissed off about it. (and off topic, what the fvck is up with this bloody text editer?)
  18. You're still not getting it, atheists don't "believe in something" while theists "believe in other things", atheists don't believe, that's the point. Hatred towards religion is justified. Just read a history book and you'll get all the justification you need. What is not justified is hatred of people, or hatred of the followers of religion. You can hate and denounce the religion, but must always respect the individual follower. Of course it affects you! Laws are made because of religion, generations of children are indoctrinated by flat out lies, science, progress and the truth are supressed because of religion. This has societal wide impact. It's not a matter of it not affecting us, because it affects everyone. Religions can and do shape society, sometimes for the better, but it's nothing that couldn't have been accomplished without religion. Of course there's a chance that god exists, and if god comes down to me and says "hey" I'll be an instant convert. But the thing is, he hasn't, and there's not a shred of evidence to say he ever has, whether to abraham, moses, jesus, muhammed, or joseph smith, there's not a shred of evidence to say he even exists. You and many others just put god in the place of an explanation because we haven't figured it out yet. It's not different than the stone age people asking "why does lighting occur?" - "because god did it". Now we know that's not true, and one day, all these little unknowns will be figured out, and there will be no more room for god to hide. God of the gaps argument. We can't, we just say there's no evidence for that so it's stupid to believe. This is the argument put forward in russels teapot. You can't disprove that a teapot isn't orbiting the sun between the earth and mars, but it's stupid to believe it, and it's even stupider to base your life around it's worship. You're right, there are some kids out there who are simply trying to be rebelious and find out what will piss off their parents the most, they latch onto it, and regugitate some things they've found on the net. You are right about that. But that's not what the majority of people who identify as atheists are about. Atheists have been around since we invented gods, most atheists have actually done some research, they've read some books, they've educated themselves a little about the topic because it's of interest to them. I mean, for f**ks sake, did you know that the percentage of atheists who have read the bible (actually read it, and can recite passages and have good comprehension of it's contents) is actually higher than the percentage of christians who have read the bible? Look, I get that it's difficult, and even hurtful to some people to hear their most cherished beliefs questioned, but if they are wrong, then they should know they are wrong. Do you really think the truth should be suppressed to save the feelings of someone? Proving them wrong would do something, how could a sane person continue to live a lie when they've been proven wrong? How could someone be in so much denial that they couldn't accept the truth even if it was plain as day in front of them, proven beyond a reasonable doubt? Things would change, and if you can change one person you can change many. I said it before but religion has a strong influence on all of society, politics, education, science and technology. You don't have to look far past the national news page in any australian newspaper to see religions influence: What influences politics? What influenced tony abbott when he vetoed the approval of RU486 and decided that he should personal overrule the majority, the panel of experts, the TGA, and ban a product because it disagreed with his religion? How much influence does religion have in schools? We have the school chaplancy program, when it was suggested this get replaced with an independent counciler there was outrage. What holds back science and technology? Religious concern, unjustified religious concern, but still. You cannot tell me that it doesn't affect me and it doesn't have anything to do with me because it does and it affects everyone in the country. While I'm on this, one of the biggest oppositions to giving up the faith so to speak is that religion allows an afterlife. I know why it is offensive to people to question their faith, because people believe that their loved ones are in heaven, and that they'll see them again, if i question their faith, i essentially am telling them they'll never see their loved ones again. I completely understand the terrible anger and opposition to the atheistic point of view and I think most of the opposition stems from this point. Yes, it is very interesting to see how information can be skewed, manipulated, and made to fit different points of view. However, the example you gave does not "prove" the earth is flat. It claims it and these claims are easily debunked by anyone who wishes to take the time. Now it's true, if you didn't know any better you could go there and believe it. BUT, isn't that my point about religion? People get told the stories as children not knowing any better. What would you do if someone believed the earth was flat? Would you try to convince them they were wrong? No? Let them have their beliefs right? Well what if they started teaching children that belief, what if then you get political lobby groups who start trying to introduce new laws into parliment, laws banning shipping crossing off the edge of the world, laws banning plane flights because they'll fall off the edge of the world. Would you still respect their beliefs then? . +1 Thankyou!
  19. Spongeboy, to address your points.... 1. Yes everyone is entitled to an opinion. but just because they have an opinion doesn't make it right 2. That's just your opinion 3. Sure there are some really stupid atheists, but if you still choose to believe in most of the shit things like the bible say despite all the evidence to the contradictory, then I'm sorry but you are not an intelligent person. 4. If you really believe that then you are a fvcking moron!
  20. Harris, I think you have a fundamentally flawed view of Atheism. Most Atheists don't claim "There is no god", because that statement is an absolute (claiming to know something with absolute certainty that you couldn't possibly know i.e. what religion does), and most Atheists really don't like to deal with absolutes. Rather Atheists don't 'believe' in god. There is a big difference. Noted Atheist Penn Jillette has a saying (I'm paraphrasing a bit here), the question 'Is there a god?' is a very different question from "do you believe in god? that answer two very topics. ask an Atheist "is there a god?', most atheists will answer with "I don't know" because that is the only logical answer seeing as we can neither prove nor disprove he's/her's/it's existence. However ask a theist the question "Is there a god" they will answer "Yes", which is completely illogical as they are claiming to know something with absolute certainty something they couldn't possibly know. This causes a problem, but more on that later. Now ask an Atheist, "Do you believe in god?" and the answer will be "no" and then they'll usually cite there various reason such as a lack of evidence etc etc. Atheism is a lack of belief in god, not claiming "there is no god". As I have said may times before (just doesn't seem to be sinking in so i'll say it again), Atheists don't like to deal in absolutes! (edit: unless there is scientific factual evidence to back it up of course.) This is the opposite to religion, they try to claim with absolute certainty not only that there IS a god, but also to know the mind of god and what he wants us to do. Now I'm sorry but if your trying to claim to know such things with absolute certainty then I call bullshit! And don't try and claim that they don't because they DO, they use it to govern the way they live and to try and govern the way others live. Now back to how dealing with absolutes causes problems (and your assertion that what you believe doesn't have anything to do with me, the fact is it does). People's beliefs dictate there behavior and people behavior does affect the people around them. In case you haven't noticed, you are on a thread discussing a fvcking riot, a riot caused by peoples beliefs. There have been riots relating to this all around the world, over 30 people are dead because of it, are you gunna tell those peoples grieving families that the beliefs of the people who killed there loved ones don't affect them? Or how about another issue that's been in the news recently. The bill to legalize same sex marriage has just been voted down in parliament, Why? because of some sort factual evidence or scientific reason? No, because of religious/conservative beliefs. So why don't you go out and tell the gay and lesbian community ( In fact there's several gay/lesbian members here on NS) that other peoples beliefs don't affect them. Now you may be free to believe what you want to believe, but don't act like there is no consequence and that other people's beliefs don't affect us all. And certainly don't try and tell me and others like me that we don't have the right to speak up/question/ridicule others beliefs when those beliefs do have an impact on the world we live in.
  21. Ok 1st off... WTF? That has to be the absolute weakest, stupidest, lamest argument of the bible I have ever heard!!!!!!!! Issac Newton read the bible so it must be true? Are you f**king kidding me? 2nd, we seem to be back on the topic about deporting people because what they did was ILLEGAL and trying to compare it to car hoons. As was mentioned earlier, the illegality of there actions is not the issue, It's that they HATE US AND WANT TO KILL US!!!! Put it this way would you invite someone into your home knowing that they hated you and wanted to cause you harm. Would you invite them in knowing that they wanted to force there ideologies on you and made you feel uncomfortable and unsafe in your own home? No of of course you wouldn't. Australia is our home and we want to feel safe and comfortable in our own home and I don't think there is anything unreasonable about that. 3rd, addressing the "Muslims should be defending free speech" argument, absolutely they should, If they want the Australian public to trust them and not lump them in with the extremists they need to speak up and show the world they are different. You don't have to like what is being said or agree with it, but you need to DEFEND peoples RIGHT to say it. It's really in your best interests to stamp out extremism, if you think the Australian public is intolerant or racist toward Muslims now, wait until one of these fundamentalists kills someone or or does some sort of suicide bombing on Australian soil, the public will turn on Muslims so fast it's not funny... and lastly, the Atheists should shut the fvck up argument..... BULLSHIT!!!!!!! I am so sick of people hiding behind the "everyone is entitled to there own opinion" argument. The fact is some people opinions are just plain wrong!!!!! And whats worse actually bring harm to others. Yes you have the right to believe what you want to believe, just as I have the right to think that your a fvcken retarded idiot for those beliefs. As I posted earlier. “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.” And the facts are that pretty much all of the events the bible tries to claim took place can be disproved. This is not "opinion" this is "FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!" We KNOW that the earth is more than 5-10 Thousand years old We KNOW that the human race did not start with Adam and EVE We KNOW that there were no giant fish on earth Jonah to live in We KNOW there was no great flood There is NO EVIDENCE to show that the Egyptians had a bunch of Jewish slaves who escaped through the sea and wondered the desert for 40 years The list goes on. There is no historical recordings (outside the bible itself) or physical evidence to support almost any claims the bible makes. This is FACT not OPINION. Even the Catholic Church says the bible shouldn't be taken literally and that it's more of a collection of old stories designed to teach us good morals (which is another debate all of it's own). Furthermore we are constantly having religious groups indoctrinate young kids and infiltrating our politics, changing laws to push there views on to the pubic. We have groups like the ACL and the lions forum who have great political influence and Islamic groups pushing for recognition of sharia law in western democracies. All the while Atheists are marginalized and made to look like they're the crazy ones, all because they like to believe scientific evidence and not deal in absolutes, instead subscribing to the idea of "we just don't know" for things that can't be proven. No, Atheists need to speak up and let people know that "we aren't the crazy ones"!
  22. when did I ever accuse you of not being a good person? And more important why do you need religion to be one. Isn't secular morality a higher form of morality, doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do and not because your worried you might burn in hell. Do we really need the fairy tales, the indoctrination, the bullshit?
  23. Oh you mean good morals like molesting little boys and covering it up? Or making saints out of people who took money from people who thought they were giving money to help the sick and dying only to have that money used to open nunneries while the sick and dying people they were suppose to be helping are left to die alone in agony on a cold concrete floor because some crazy witch thinks that suffering will bring them closer to god? Or using ones immense wealth and influence to change laws and force your narrow minded beliefs on an unwilling public? judging the majority based on the actions of the minority again bro.. Not judging, just questioning why people insist on blindly putting there faith in fairly tales propagated by influential aristocracies who are using this as a means of social engineering to further there own interests. Wondering why people just can't seem to see through the bullshit and recognize religion for what it really is.
  24. aah i see, you're a dick that is unable to maintain a mature conversation with someone that has differing views to yourself.. too easy bro what would be the point, anyone who actually believes in the fairy tales about a magical space man in the sky without any sort of evidence based facts is clearly not a rational thinker, and you can't really have a rational conversation with an irrational person..... Disagree? Want to prove me wrong? Then put forth some rational arguments as to why anyone should believe in this bullshit! What created the universe?? The big bang is a theory, but what was before that?? And then before that?? there had to have been a point in time where there was nothing.. no space, no matter, no molecules, nothing.. SOMETHING had to have created something for the universe and time to start.. What was that thing?? Atheists seem to believe that it can just 'magically' just appear from thin air, but wait, there was no air, and there was no space or 'area' for that to something to appear into.. I believe that there must be some over bearing power that created 'something' that started the chain events that created the universe.. it might be a lad in a nice white dress with a beard, it might have been a 4 armed dude named Vishnu, i dont know.. But i do know that 'something' can't appear from 'nothing'.. so SOMETHING had to have done something else to help create the universe.. frankly i think thats more rational than atheists believing that the ingredients that made up the big bang just sort of 'appeared'.. LOL. ah the old it's just a "theory" chestnut. sounds like you need some education on what constitutes a scientific theory. 1st thing you need to understand, science (unlike religion) doesn't like to deal in absolutes. Theories are based on all available EVIDENCE available at the time while recognizing that new evidence may come to light in the future that alter said theory. 2nd thing, you need an absolute ass load of EVIDENCE in order to create a scientific theory. It's not like some guy just has an idea off the top of his head and all of a sudden it's recognized as a scientific theory. Put it this way, do you believe in gravity? It's still considered just a theory. Now onto your "well someone had to create the universe" argument. The idea that some sort of being must have created everything is certainly plausible, but even if that is true it doesn't make any of the fairy tales put forth by Christianity any more true. How do you make the jump from some being creating the universe to Christianity (or any religion for that matter) being true? What's the correlation between the two? It's specious reasoning. So once again I say, put forth a rational argument for your faith in Christianity/religion..... Sure... Gravity may still be a theory but I can tell you right now 10 out of 10 times I hold a stone up and let go. It will drop. Reguardless of the theory, The end result is still the same. It's physical, tangable, visual, I can hear it too! You can't deny the results... Unlike religion; I have yet to see god, hear him, touch him. Instead all I have is books written by common men. Reguardless of the theory or religion... The end result is what really matters. Um so whats you point? I may be reading this wrong but it seems like your trying to argue against what I was saying using the arguments I just made
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