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s15rocket

Street driven SR20VET into an s13, s14, s15 on the cheap

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Hello I would like to start thread dedicated to making a cheap SR20vet with a reliable and extemely responsive 300rwkw - 350rwkw engine (not some crazy expensive, impractical 900hp job).

 

I have dabbled with the idea for about a year now but haven't quite bitten the bullet. But I would like to share some info of what I have discovered so far (please add to this thread if you have some information).

 

PROS of this conversion compared to say rb25:

 

- The engine is still techincally an sr20 so you will have the same engine numbers so don't even have to worry about getting VASS or engineers certificates or mod plates because sr20 belongs in an S chasis so no issue there.

 

 

- SR20VET is essentially an SR20 with vtec making the engine more responsive and torquey and much more drivable than an sr20det putting out the same power.

 

- This conversion is not as difficult as it once was with companies like mazworx now providing complete conversion kits.

 

http://www.mazworx.c...-conversion-kit

 

- Since the engine is still an sr20 it will bolt straight in no problems unlike mucking around with an rb25.

 

- You can have a stock looking street car with some SERIOUS power that is both streetable and technically legal.

 

 

 

 

Any one else interested or have done this possible conversion? Please add any information or experiences you've had.

 

 

 

Also I want to have the biggest low mount turbo (3076?) you can get with this engine to maintain that stock look (just makes it easier if you get defected etc) Coz you don't need to channge anything because they can't see the turbo from the top unless you look REALLY hard. My experience is engineer certs and mod plates are not worth the paper they're written on. regular roadworthies from joe blow who doesn't know what he is looking at is a MUCH more viable option. Keep a stock engine bay and a low mount turbo and pretty much the only thing you need to change for a possible defect is the front mount intercooler and piping, boost solenoid, exhaust (from dump pipe back) and ride height. Then when done just bolt it back on.Don't doubt me on this coz I've done it 2-3 times while still having huge injectors, power fc, etc. General rule is if they can't see it they don't know about it and nor do they care.

Edited by s15rocket
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Here is a link to some extensive threads for those who don't what these things are.

 

http://www.nissansil...ic=290139&st=30

 

http://www.nissansil...howtopic=372528

 

http://www.nissansil...ic=515171&st=60

 

http://www.nissansil...l=&fromsearch=1

 

 

 

 

Here is a video showing what these motors are capable of.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEEft-imBbA

Edited by s15rocket
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Also I would like to share part of a private conversion with another member here on his experiences with this engine and conversion (from someone whos actually done it). Just for your own edification.

 

 

Hey mate,

 

Saw you asking about ve prices etc. It really depends how crazy you wanna go with it. It depends on what supporting hardware you have (turbo, injectors etc)

 

Here's a bit of a run down

 

Ve motor - I paid 1100 for a high km but nuts condition p11 motor shipped from nissin king (yes nissin not Nissan) in NZ. The motor has no signs of wear.

 

Conversion bits - about 800-1100 mainly from taarks

 

Intake manifold - this is the killer. The two best options are mazworx (1600 shipped) or preferably a Hypertune (circa 2000). There is an excessive manufacturing bolt on plenum which PJs quick bits distribute and use that should be around 400.

 

So, if you've got the self control, you could do the conversion for under 3k yourself. But then you add on tuning, turbo upgrade machining etc and it spirals. I spent about 7k on mine including plenty of upgrades.

 

Thanks for the info mate! :)

 

Wow that's not as expensive as I thought. So you bought the whole motor just for the P11 head? I saw a few P11 heads for sale on there own for like $800 but it would of been a real impulse buy to be honest as Im not quite at that stage just yet.

 

It was my understanding you just use the head and put it on your SR20 block? Are you doing all the work youself?

 

 

Yeah it only starts getting big bucks I once you add bigger turbos etc and if you pay someone.

 

Yeah head goes straight on. You just need to block an oil drain in the block, by pushing in a metal fitting.

 

Doing all the work yourself makes it much much cheaper. I left the bottom end stock because it'll be more than fine for low 300kws whilst I build a new block on the side

 

 

 

 

Yeah I was going to ask you that. So you don't even need to have a built motor to have one of these heads. I was thinking of just using my current stock bottom end. A very responsive 300kw sounds great biggrin.png Is yours actually on the road yet? How does it drive?

 

 

Yeah just using the stock block will be fine for under 350kw, especially with e85. I read a guy had run 340kw with stock block and even stock head gasket for 3 years.

 

Not running yet, should be tomorrow hopefully. Yeah same with me. 300kw with super response was the aim. I might slowly build a 2.2L block on the side

 

 

 

 

Yeah the bottom ends can take more stick than most people think especially on e85. Hmm I think I might do what you are doing and just build one on the side. Find a cheap running s13 SR and just build it on the side with the P11 head. What's the chances of finding a P12 head? I hear they are better but hard to find!

 

 

 

 

Yeah that's The best idea I reckon. But if you're building it on the side, I'd just budget an extra 1500 for forgives rods and pistons. I probably won't even cost 1500. If you can find a p12, go for it if you're not worried about cost, but I don't think the p12 is that much better to justify the rareness and price hike. Brand new p12 cams are 600 if you want p12 cams
Edited by s15rocket
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Street forced did a 350kw corolla drag car, I don't think I've heard of anyone running 'that low' in terms of power. One thing to consider is that the standard cams are quite massive duration in the high profile, you might find that a 'sensible' turbo would choke it (maybe).

 

Nino's original motor had done away with the VVEL mechanism, and ran a single profiled cam. You still have a very high flowing head, with unbeatable rocker arms, but also have a much lighter valve train. You could do this and get a cam profile to suit your power goals/turbo better, but this may or may not be a step backwards.

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Some of the US guys who use small turbos like 2871r or t28 lost power switching to the big lobes. VEs definitely benefit from unrestricted setups. Twin scroll housings are a good idea for them and help with response too.

 

Mine is running really well using nistune and a RPM switch (standalone eventually) and seems to benefit from kicking in the big cams very early. You can definitely feel the small cams working as the car feels very strong down low. The power is very linear and the car feels no where near as fast as it actually is.

 

If I were to redo my conversion, i'd use a p12 solenoid setup from taarks as it bolts on without all the lines and relocation stuff.

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you could go further and run high compression pistons with a small turbo on low boost and have a really oddball engine that would be pretty fun on the street i reckon.

 

a mate just killed his redtop so we are looking into this sort of thing too for a daily.

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i'll try report back some more on my setup in a few days once i pull the intake manifold off and fix a big boost leak which is definitely hindering efficiency and making it laggy.

 

slapping a VE head on a DET block will give you 9.2-9.3:1 comp ratio roughly. I put a thinner head gasket (was 1mm instead of 1.2mm i think) on and ended with somewhere between 9.5-9.7.

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Am I wrong in saying you need a VE oil pump, then have to have it profiled to the block?

 

Also VE pistons have valve cut outs, if you want a quality build you're pretty much up for a rebuild as well?

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VE oil pump is recommended as it provides much much higher pressure than a DET pump. I didn't profile mine and have no issues with sealing, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to do it anyway if the block is coming out.

 

If you use sr16ve or sr16ve n1 cams DET pistons won't cut it. P11 cams have clearance (until you start playing with cam gears I guess) and i'm pretty sure p12 cams also have clearances

 

The need to rebuild the block depends on the health of your current block and your intended power goal. 300kw on e85 on a decent sr20 bottom end is not a stretch. 350kw on 98 on a high km bottom end is obviously asking for trouble

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you could go further and run high compression pistons with a small turbo on low boost and have a really oddball engine that would be pretty fun on the street i reckon.

 

a mate just killed his redtop so we are looking into this sort of thing too for a daily.

 

High comp + small turbo = pinging off its head

 

Look at turbo Honda's, you see lots of K20A's make 140-150 fwkw, then 135 kw with an off the shell T28 kit. Knock city. Same motors will do 250+kw with a 3076 on "low boost". You have to think, high comp + big cams = flow. They push a lot of air through with less pressure, so "only 6psi" with VTEC is actually a f**kload of air compared to a caveman SR20DET.

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Why start with an S13 block ? I thought the S15 blocks had the best oil squirters etc ?

 

Nick, I was thinking could you just have used the VCT switch in Nistune to trigger the cam swap instead of the rpm switch ?

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a consideration with s14 and s15 block is that the VCT drain hole must be blocked at the right driver's side of the block. 8.4mm i think it was. the VVL drain hole needs to be blocked on a p11 head - i think that was 4.3mm.

 

I tried using VCT output to trigger it, but it isn't very controllable - there must be hidden decision making variables in the ECU. it does things like engage the cams once throttle is open, but turns it off once throttle is closed - that isn't ideal for VVL control. I had a thought that the boost control output on s14/15s could be used as that is RPM based. In the end, a RPM switch works perfectly, is adjustable and cost $80

 

 

Here are a couple of vids:

 

That is a pull on low boost (maybe 1 bar) - cams switch at 4300 rpm. Currently switch at 3500rpm and the difference is noticeable - boost comes on earlier and there is more power sooner.

 

 

switched to the high lobes on idle for fun - p11 cams are about 260-270 with a lot of overlap

 

 

and one making use of the 7800 rpm limiter

 

 

 

 

http://

Edited by nicknack

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switched to the high lobes on idle for fun - p11 cams are about 260-270 with a lot of overlap

 

 

 

Sounds totally badass! :D

 

Some good info in this thread so far. Looking forward to hearing from some other experienced sr20vet owners.

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It's good to hear you don't need to spend 50k to get the advantages

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Cant wait to build a VET setup, Although even when the Mazworx kit is like $2k delivered the whole VET purchase itself ads a big chunk of money onto it..

 

Id still say if you currently have a pretty off chops car with aftermarket ecu/turbo etc etc youd still be looking at 7k for a VET upgrade?

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As above,

 

1.3k is what my full p11 motor cost

 

1k ish for conversion bits

 

400 for a excessive manufacturing plenum

 

If you had all the bits, this is potentially a 3k swap depending on if you pay for labour. Det exhaust manifolds can be used if you redrill the mounting bolt holes.

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As above,

1.3k is what my full p11 motor cost

1k ish for conversion bits

400 for a excessive manufacturing plenum

If you had all the bits, this is potentially a 3k swap depending on if you pay for labour. Det exhaust manifolds can be used if you redrill the mounting bolt holes.

 

Wow thats alot cheaper than i expected it to be...

 

Really keen to get mine going now that it could be done for about that much as i already have everything else ticked off anyway..

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Really keen to get mine going now that it could be done for about that much as i already have everything else ticked off anyway..

 

Yes exactly most of us that have been in the car mod game for a few years already have all the big turbos, the intercoolers, the injectors etc. So its not like you need to start completely from scratch when buying parts.

 

I am also keen to get my VET project started. Just gotta sell my s15 and find a nice clean white s13 silvia with an SR20DET on the cheap and then go from there.

 

Not many around sadly :(

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Got some updates. I've thought I had a boost leak from the beginning, but have tried every hose, every pipe etc. Today I did a boost leak/smoke test and found that all 4 runner on the intake manifold were not sealing. Smoke was absolutely pouring out from where the runners meet the plenum.

 

Looks like I'll get those joins welded and that should fix it. But it makes me very very keen to see how the car performs once they're sealed. As a indication of how much it's leaking there, I need around 40% more fuel at idle because of all the extra air being sucked in and the ecu is injecting about 40% less than it should under boost (scaling is around 13000 instead of 18000).

 

 

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Mazworx one. I've considered switching to the excessive plenum as I think it looks a bit more subtle and probably will help down low and mid-range judging by its size. Would also have way more room.

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Is this the xcessive plenum? Painted black like this, it would be very stealth :)

 

The Mazworx one does look a little chunky. I'm just not into chrome at all or polished steel at all.

 

Thread here.

 

http://nissansilvia....pic=521707&st=0

 

 

Image0193.jpg

 

3444i9f.jpg

Edited by s15rocket

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I like this personally. looks stock and has long runners.

 

http://hardtuned.net/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=391094

 

 

 

 

or this - a flipped p11 plenum. That was my original idea. it'd work with some careful porting of the runners and bolt holes

img0581l.jpg

 

 

 

one of powertune's cars i think (black dragon maybe?)

486568_371166122955516_987787480_n.jpg

 

 

or ideally the excessive plenum like on PJs s13. Looks like a 45* elbow has been welded on to move the throttle body lower

post-25386-0-58122400-1352291031.jpg

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Hmm I'm a little confused. With a VE head with either the Xcessive or Mazworx plenum does the fuel rail have to sit above the plenum like that? Why can't you have big side feed injectors like 1200cc five-0 ones. The reason I ask is because the top feed fuel rail sitting above the plenum like that is not very stealth. I know with the s15 blacktop motor the after market fuel rails actually sit under the stock plenum and you can barely see it especially if its painted black as opposed to the s13 sr20 where it sits on top of the plenum and stands out like a sore thumb.

 

 

Here is an example of the hidden top feed fuel rail on an s14/s15 motor. Can't even see it! Wish you could do this for the VET.

 

I really want my build to be super stealth.

 

S14_3.jpg

 

DSC_0013-1.jpg

 

DSC_0015-1.jpg

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You can do it on a VE. Check out the second pic I posted above, that's a s15 plenum on VE runners. I think the first link I posted above is also similar

 

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I like the GReddy manifold with VE runners, I like the idea of longer runners for more torque

greddy s15 inmane VE 1.jpggreddy s15 inmane VE 2.jpg

greddy s15 inmane VE 3.jpggreddy s15 inmane VE 4.jpg

 

Excessive plenum is also a good option

excessive plenum p12 1.jpg

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So this is the runner for cyl 2. Pretty big split unfortunately. Looks like i'll have to get all 4 runners welded. That is where the base of the runner meets the plenum chamber

cracked mazworx manifold (1).jpg

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For what its worth here some of my experiences to the questions above...

 

VE valve train is actually very heavy so you need heavier valve springs than you would on a DE. Its very strong but definitely heavy. I'd be going with something about >200 pound on the nose and >80 on the seat. Maybe even stiffer.

 

Because of E85 and the VE head being a lot more detonation resistant don't worry if compression is on the higher end compared to stock, shouldn't be a problem.

 

VE's need tonnes of flow so I would personally steer away from that greddy plenum I reckon it would suck a tonne of power out of that engine as the inlets inside the inlet manifold are smaller than the actual inlets on the side of the engine so you're heavily restricting the power the engine can make. You really want some decent taper (ie. the ports are bigger at the inlet manifold than they are where the port meets the head. Quite a big bigger ideally at the manifold so it speeds up the air as it goes into the head.

 

You can definitely run low profile injectors. ID/bosch injectors that most people use come with collars that space the fuel rail away to make it easier to work on but you don't have to run these. Also, the reason everyone is using top feed is because i'm not aware of any side feed injectors that are actually any good in big sizes which you need for e85. Most of the big side feeds are pretty ordinary for normal driving/idle etc.

 

VE setups can definitely be done cheaply as Nick as definitely shown. Where it snowballs is VE's open so many doors to unlock efficiencies which are hard to ignore... Ie. a 100mm intercooler will translate into noticeably more power, you can have a bigger turbo with very good response, switch separate camshafts at different times result in better power delivery hence standalone ecu, with more power comes the need for better cooling so you need a bigger radiator for trackwork, VE oil pumps pump a lot more than a standard oil pump so you really need a bigger sump to stop oil surge when driven hard with corners etc. Now you've spent all this money you want temps and pressures logged to tell you if anything is going wrong, so you need gauges or a dash and all the supporting sensors...

 

It snowballs really quickly but it doesn't have to all be done in one go. Nick has shown if you have restraint you can do it progressively without spending a tonne of money upfront.

 

 

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