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Random Ramblings about E85 Ethanol Fuel - Facts/Myths

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Every once in a while I get a PM regarding E85 setup, tuneability, etc.

Best I bang my ramblings into a post :)

 

Just to give you an idea, I'm just an enthusiast with some tuning knowledge & experience. I mainly just tune my own car and my mates for shits & giggles. To date, have not blown a motor :)

 

 

Here goes!

 

 

Q: Power should never dictate E85, there are so many benefits of E85..I often here people say you're not making 200kW+ why would you want to run E85 for?

 

Let's start off with a few things.

 

Being a 4 banger Nissan motor, they have relatively a longer stroke vs. their bore size.. nothing wrong with that, however this creates loads of torque and hits max VE quite early but also noses over, i.e. torque decays vs. RPM much quicker. Now this means the timing map would have a dip where max torque/where max VE is achieved..

 

Let's make up some timing values vs. RPM:

3600rpm - 15

4000rpm - 13

4400rpm - 12

4800rpm - 12

5200rpm - 14

5600rpm - 15

6000rpm - 17

 

See how the timing value drops where max torque is made? now with E85 you have these benefits:

  • slower flame front, i.e.takes longer to ignite - awesome, means you can dial in more timing
  • burns cooler - awesome, means you can dial in more timing and EGT and cylinder temps are low
  • knock resistance, awesome just dial in timing till it makes no more power

So let's revisit that timing map again, with E85 you could potentially do this (once again making up timing figures):

3600rpm - 17

4000rpm - 17

4400rpm - 17

4800rpm - 17

5200rpm - 17

5600rpm - 19

6000rpm - 21

 

So now regardless of power achieved, etc. you've just altered the motor's torque curve.. this also equates to more power before max power is achieved. Your torque curve will drastically look different and not to mention you'll be baking tyres quite easily.

 

 

Q: I want to convert to E85, but is it really worth it?

 

There's no real cost to going E85, just need to address old crumbly fuel hoses, a decent enough flowing fuel pump & injectors that will flow more fuel.

 

Say if your injector setup is flowing at near max - with E85 you would need around 30~40% more "injector". i.e. 550cc on 98RON you're going to need 715cc+ for E85 thus a good choice would be 740cc Nismos OR just fuark it and convert to top feed 1000cc injectors.

 

However say on your current setup you're only hitting 50% duty cycle on your 550cc injectors then going E85 means you'll just operate them at 80%+ duty cycle.. i.e. happy days!

 

Being old Nissans, I recommend you change your fuel lines to new ones (not necessarily ethanol compatible ones but might as well) just for piece of mind. Also when you first convert I recommend changing your fuel filter every 2/3 tanks for the first few months (if you have a dirty fuel tank).

 

Other than that, convert now and bake tyres!

Edited by Johnnilicte

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Another thing to keep an eye on is the FPR. The Tomei ones don't seem to hold up to e85 too well and start leaking(yes genuine). Having your fuel pressure change over time isn't ideal, particularly if it lowers.Turbosmart have e85 compatible ones.

 

If you're replacing fuel lines you'd be silly not to get ethanol compatible hose. Really though you need very little in the engine bay (well in my s15 anyway).

 

Injectors are something you do once and do right. When I went top feed I went straight to 2000cc even though I was only using about 50% of them. I would've been fine with 1000cc and a bit of extra pressure, but now with the new setup I'll be using well over 1000cc. IDLE AND DRIVABILITY ISN'T AFFECTED BY 2000s VS 1000s. The Bosch/ID injectors have very good control and will idle perfectly at lean AFRs and normal idle RPM smoothly.

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+ don't make the mistake I made - I bought 1200cc Side Feed Five-O Motorsport injectors and they're a buckle of horse droppings!

 

I've learnt the expensive way, and just forked out for a top feed kit with Siemens DEKA half height injections. Albeit, I've got a RB25DET.

Edited by Johnnilicte

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Another thing to keep an eye on is the FPR. The Tomei ones don't seem to hold up to e85 too well and start leaking(yes genuine). Having your fuel pressure change over time isn't ideal, particularly if it lowers.Turbosmart have e85 compatible ones.

 

If you're replacing fuel lines you'd be silly not to get ethanol compatible hose. Really though you need very little in the engine bay (well in my s15 anyway).

 

Injectors are something you do once and do right. When I went top feed I went straight to 2000cc even though I was only using about 50% of them. I would've been fine with 1000cc and a bit of extra pressure, but now with the new setup I'll be using well over 1000cc. IDLE AND DRIVABILITY ISN'T AFFECTED BY 2000s VS 1000s. The Bosch/ID injectors have very good control and will idle perfectly at lean AFRs and normal idle RPM smoothly.

I disagree man. It depends on the relative experience of your tuner. Mine is new to haltech and big injectors. Couldn't work with 2000cc injectors. He's not a bad tuner. In fact his attention to detail far surpasses any of the usual Sydney tuners who load old tunes from previous done cars, do a power run, make a couple of minor changes and charge you a fortune. I guess the point is you have to cater for your tuner, and not listen to a forum. Most tuners will tell you to f**k off if you quote what others have done off a forum.

I don't doubt you can get good driveability out of big injectors, but my other point is that you'll still get better response out of a smaller injector, purely because the solonoid is smaller. So I think you're best off matching the injector to power goal for best results. No point in having a 50% redundancy if you never use it

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I was using nistune to control 2000s, if anything a standalone should have better ability to control as you can adjust the injector timing. That's said, with nistune I was able to completely eliminate rich tip-in and have a smooth afr transition. The injectors are not an issue, it's how they're tuned/set up. Tuners understandably don't like spending heaps of time on those finer details because no one wants to pay the same price for driveability tuning as they do for WOT tuning.

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Another thing to keep an eye on is the FPR. The Tomei ones don't seem to hold up to e85 too well and start leaking(yes genuine). Having your fuel pressure change over time isn't ideal, particularly if it lowers.Turbosmart have e85 compatible ones.

 

If you're replacing fuel lines you'd be silly not to get ethanol compatible hose. Really though you need very little in the engine bay (well in my s15 anyway).

 

Injectors are something you do once and do right. When I went top feed I went straight to 2000cc even though I was only using about 50% of them. I would've been fine with 1000cc and a bit of extra pressure, but now with the new setup I'll be using well over 1000cc. IDLE AND DRIVABILITY ISN'T AFFECTED BY 2000s VS 1000s. The Bosch/ID injectors have very good control and will idle perfectly at lean AFRs and normal idle RPM smoothly.

 

tomei type L is perfect ive been using it with my car on e85 for over a year, works a charm, has a larger diaphram

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I've setup a set of 1000cc Five-O Motorsport side feeds (yes yuck) on a S15 with the OEM rail, OEM FPR and it works a treat. No silly rich spots, etc.. and driveability funny enough it like stock, albeit on E85.

 

The OEM FPR flows enough, I recommend sitting to it if there's no real requirement for an external FPR. EFI Hardware/similar have -8AN to Nissan OEM FPR adaptors as well, which I reckon would work a treat and keep that engine bay looking ze stealth!

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tomei type L is perfect ive been using it with my car on e85 for over a year, works a charm, has a larger diaphram

 

The bigger L type is the one my mate had issues with. Could've just been that his was faulty, but I the e85 affecting the rubber doesn't seem too unlikely

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Cool info dude :) I'm going e85 soon and I just need some injectors and Im ready for a tune. Going to take advantage of the haltech's flex fuel ability with the sensor.

 

On an s15 I thought the fuel lines were ok to use? Where do you buy e85 fuel hose?

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Aero flow 400 hose e85 submersible hose 5/16 or -5 size

Rocket sell it or eBay it's cheap aswell $15-20 a meter

Or you can get the gates barricade e85 hose from repco

Only issue I've seen with e85 is the the black gunk on the injector tips

Mine suffered it bad after 3years straight e85 only found out cause the headgasket blew so took them out

Weird thing is When I got them cleaned and flow tested

They said they still flowed and spray ok prior but the tips were almost completely covered in this black jelly

It's comes from a fuel additive they add to it and only sticks to the injectors tips as it evaporates as it combusts

It's easily dissolved in regular unleaded so if you have dual maps and run unleaded thru it every now and then it cleans it off or they have tried it in the states seafoam gets it off

So I'm going to try subaru uec every oil change and see how it goes as it's similar to seafoam

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Cool info dude :) I'm going e85 soon and I just need some injectors and Im ready for a tune. Going to take advantage of the haltech's flex fuel ability with the sensor.

 

On an s15 I thought the fuel lines were ok to use? Where do you buy e85 fuel hose?

 

Depending on your power goals and IF you're planning on running side feeds, I suggest you don't go any larger than 1000cc ELSE go nuts with the new generation BOSCH or Siemens DEKA top feeds.

 

Really depends, if your fuel lines from the tank to the hard lines are looking a little shot then change them. If not then just continue using them! I only changed mine to Gates Barricade (tank to hard lines, and the engine bay ones) because my stock lines look like they were found in a garbage tip lol

Edited by Johnnilicte

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Aero flow 400 hose e85 submersible hose 5/16 or -5 size

Rocket sell it or eBay it's cheap aswell $15-20 a meter

Or you can get the gates barricade e85 hose from repco

Only issue I've seen with e85 is the the black gunk on the injector tips

Mine suffered it bad after 3years straight e85 only found out cause the headgasket blew so took them out

Weird thing is When I got them cleaned and flow tested

They said they still flowed and spray ok prior but the tips were almost completely covered in this black jelly

It's comes from a fuel additive they add to it and only sticks to the injectors tips as it evaporates as it combusts

It's easily dissolved in regular unleaded so if you have dual maps and run unleaded thru it every now and then it cleans it off or they have tried it in the states seafoam gets it off

So I'm going to try subaru uec every oil change and see how it goes as it's similar to seafoam

Cool info dude :) I'm going e85 soon and I just need some injectors and Im ready for a tune. Going to take advantage of the haltech's flex fuel ability with the sensor.

 

On an s15 I thought the fuel lines were ok to use? Where do you buy e85 fuel hose?

 

Depending on your power goals and IF you're planning on running side feeds, I suggest you don't go any larger than 1000cc ELSE go nuts with the new generation BOSCH or Siemens DEKA top feeds.

 

Really depends, if your fuel lines from the tank to the hard lines are looking a little shot then change them. If not then just continue using them! I only changed mine to Gates Barricade (tank to hard lines, and the engine bay ones) because my stock lines look like they were found in a garbage tip lol

 

Awesome thanks for the info guys its good repco are good for something lol. l will have to check mine aren't from the garbage tip also. Yeah i will be going top feed id2000s Im not stuffing around this time as id rather have a lot of headroom and everything Ive read about the Bosch/ids are the way to go.

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tomei type L is perfect ive been using it with my car on e85 for over a year, works a charm, has a larger diaphram

 

The bigger L type is the one my mate had issues with. Could've just been that his was faulty, but I the e85 affecting the rubber doesn't seem too unlikely

 

im using e85 compatible speedflow braid and fittings throughout the car so no issues :)

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The biggest downfall to E85 is availability. You can't just stop at any fuel station and fill up when your running low.

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The biggest downfall to E85 is availability. You can't just stop at any fuel station and fill up when your running low.

 

however if you're running closed loop AFRs and desperate you could potentially top up your tank with 98RON and drive home and still give it some stick.. better yet run a flex fuel sensor and interpolate the timing/injection correction...

 

I will be doing that soon so I can just put anything into the car, however been lazy lol

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Thanks Johninilicte for the EFIHardware Nissan stock FPR adapter link, I think that will come in handy.

 

I'm thinking it sounds best with e85 for the power I'm looking at to go top feed. Still not sure which injector. Ideally I'd like somewhere between 1000 and 2000 but it seems to mostly be one or the other. I reckon I'll get 245KW on e85 at first but down the line with cams it could get up to 270, but I wouldn't go higher than that.

 

Do you reckon the stock FPR would be fine for up to 270kW down the line with the stock FPR and those top feeds?

 

And do you reckon an ebay top feed fuel rail for s13 would be fine? They're so much cheaper but it should be a pretty hard part to screw up, shouldn't it?

Here's an example of one:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-top-feed-injector-billet-fuel-rail-for-240SX-S13-SR20-SR20det-Silvia-gray-/331345092058?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d25b4ddda

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In theory, it's pretty hard to stuff up a fuel rail, but I'm on my third. The one that came with my plenum didn't line up on the mounting holes. Then I bought another which did but then I couldn't close the bonnet. So I had to take the adaptor caps off my id1000s which then made them 14mm, not 11mm. The only solution I could find was to buy a bpp rail. Look it up. Not cheap but mondo quality. I never say mondo.

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i going the Mazworx top feed fuel rail and using a Nismo fuel reg thats E85 compatible . just got to work out if im going ID1000 or the 2000s and the best place to buy them any idea's

Also with the E85 the tune is a bit more expensive to set up with the Eflex sensor a running nistune anyone running this setup yet

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You could go Xspurt injectors, they are Bosch injectors that have been flow matched and milled to suit. Alternatively, just buy 1150cc OR 2200cc Bosch Injectors which are unmodified... most "Bosch style" injectors are usually modified to suit the flow requirements by milling out the nozzle.

 

I just my injectors and other people's injectors off eBay US.. shipping might take some time, but you save $$$$$$ in the long run.. Some prefer local support so pay a little more for the service & support..

 

Question is, how much power do you intend on making?

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Bosch 2200cc are cheap from Taarks and are exactly the same as ID2000.

 

inb4 flow matched argument

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anyone run nismo 740's with E85?

 

will u also need to change the injector o rings to e85 compatible ones?

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I'm running nismo 740cc injectors on my car on e85 no problems std orings and been for 3-4years

There pretty much maxxed out on 280rwkw on caltex eflex at 4bar base fuel pressure with a nismo fuel reg aswell

You get abit more out of them with caltex eflex than united e85 as the ethanol is less in eflex

Eflex is usually e70

United is usually e90

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Bosch 2200s are the ones to get. You'd never know you were running non standard injectors. They've excellent control

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for the last time, ethanol does nothing to rubber -_-

 

Marketing plot to make more sales, same as drinking coke makes you look like a model lol

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They say that 1000cc injectors are good for 260kW on e85 but I think that's at 80% duty cycle. So bumping it up to 83% for 270kW should be fine, don't you think?

Also, it's better to run them at stock pressure with the stock FPR rather than upping the pressure? Because the spray pattern could in theory get worse?

 

And with the fuel rails, some are 14mm and some are 11mm, does that mean the 14mm ones are designed for the bosch injectors being shorter? I'd like to find a rail that I can use the short injectors without using the adapters to make them "full length" cos the shorter they are, the better it looks and the less it sticks up and probably has clearance issues with the strut brace. Anyone have any advice on that?

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Typically most jap brand top mount rails are 11mm , I am using a sard rail which is 11mm I have Bosch 2200's with the extensions. I just went and checked my strut brace It does not clear my fuel rail. I could have sworn I had it on there before with the Sard rail (S13 SR20)

 

Bosch 2200's are great I have no issues with streetability what so ever , I initialy brought Bosch Indy blues for my set up then the new range of Bosch injectors started coming out so I never tried the Indy blues which are 14mm probably similar length as the 2200's with extension on.

I think they are 1500cc from memory. I still have them somewhere if anyone is interested.

Edited by gomanji

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