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Dr. Cranium

Evolution Vs. Creation

  

181 members have voted

  1. 1. Which do you beleive in?

    • Evolution
      139
    • Creation
      27


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but then who created god? surely some has to have created him... if if so then who created the thing that created god and so on??

 

No, the christian belief is that God created all things that have a beginning in space and time. As God is outside space and time, he has existed forever and has no creator.

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evolution,.. i believe there is more to life that we've seen,.. but I'll never believe that someone built all

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but then who created god? surely some has to have created him... if if so then who created the thing that created god and so on??

 

No, the christian belief is that God created all things that have a beginning in space and time. As God is outside space and time, he has existed forever and has no creator.

 

I love this argument. Essentially.

 

" God just is, so deal with it"

 

This comes from the same people who refuse to even consider that something (the universe) could come from "apparently" nothing (the Big Bang).

 

Hypocrites.

 

..................................................

 

I say "apparently" as the Big Bang Theory does not claim that the universe came from nothing.

 

It states that the Big Bang arose due to a point of infinite temperature, infinite pressure and infinite density (Ie: something - what this "something" is we can not know as it existed before our universe existed, and it is believed that no information from this "something" could have remained in our universe).

 

This point then reached a fundamental upper limit and resulted in an unimaginable release of pure energy called the Big Bang. It was at this instant that space, time and all the laws of physics were created.

 

This energy obeying the newly formed laws of physics arranged itself into quantum particles (or strings if you subscribe to string theory) which through natural interactions over time arranged themselves into sub atomic particles. These subatomic particles in turn eventually arranged themselves into hydrogen atoms.

 

From here gravity took over and began to draw hydrogen together into massive clouds, as the clouds got heavier they drew more hydrogen in, as more and more hydrogen was drawn in and compressed the temperature of the clouds rose, eventually the temperature and pressure reached a critical point where nuclear fusion began, and thus the very first stars were born. From here these stars converted hydrogen into helium through a process known as stellar nucleo-synthesis.

 

Successive generations of stars fused increasingly heavier elements together to produce all the naturally occurring elements (Yes the very carbon that you are made from was created inside a star).

 

I can't be bothered writing much more so a quick jump to the end:

 

The matter created by the stars guided by the laws of physics and gravity arranged itself into the universe that we observe today.

Edited by SIR ASHMAN

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but then who created god? surely some has to have created him... if if so then who created the thing that created god and so on??

 

No, the christian belief is that God created all things that have a beginning in space and time. As God is outside space and time, he has existed forever and has no creator.

 

I love this argument. Essentially.

 

" God just is, so deal with it"

 

This comes from the same people who can not believe that something (the universe) could come from "apparently" nothing (the Big Bang).

 

Hypocrites.

 

i called one of my teachers out on that so good when i was 10 :lol:

they said god is like a ring, he has no beginning and no end, i said "but someone made that ring", the teacher had no reply :lol:

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I grew up an atheist. But now I believe in God. I've got a lot of reasons to believe in a higher power and not that many not too. I won't get into that now.

Everyone has the ability to choose. I never jam my beliefs down anyones throat.

Believe what u want but just make sure that when the time comes you stand upon what u believe.

Why I say that is because it's funny when people face a life and death situation how quickly they change their tune........

Edited by greens14

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im not religious at all.. far from it. im also not interested in getting into arguments over religions. however i will say this.

 

those that believe in creation... wtf... really? there is SCIENTIFIC proof of evolution. not to mention the proof of this planet's age. i mean FFS there are still people on this planet who believe that the earth is flat. (google flat earth society)

 

as someone else mentioned in this thread... im also open minded. but proof and scientific fact is a hell of a lot more convincing then gospel or shit written in an old book.

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An argument I would like to address is the claim that the planet is perfectly suited to us (the right temperature, right amount of light, right humidity etc etc). it's so perfect it must have been created specifically for us.

 

People who hold this idea have made a fundamental error. They are putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. The planet is apparently so perfectly suited to us not because it was created to suit us, but because we have adapted to suit it.

 

Natural selection favors the organisms that adapt to their environments the best. Those that are not adapted die out. Simple.

 

The atmosphere, temperature. light etc is all perfect for us, because we have adapted to suit it.

 

This leads us to the theory of evolution.

 

Creationists demand proof of evolution. But the only proof that will satisfy them is something as radical as a fish turning into a monkey.

 

The fact is this type of major evolutionary shift in an organism occurs over millions upon millions of years, it is absolutely impossible for anyone to provide scientific proof of such a dramatic change as no one could have possibly observed and documented it (and it is ludicrous to even ask for proof). Not to mention that such a change does not occur all at once, such a change is built up of thousands of tiny little evolutionary changes that slowly shape the organism into a new one.

 

What we can provide is evidence of these little changes.

 

I remember reading somewhere about a study that took a bacterial colony and exposed it to repeated, slight increases in temperature over a period of years (for bacteria this is hundreds of generations). What happened was each time the colony was exposed to the slightly elevated temperature, most of the colony died, however some who just naturally had a slightly better temperature tolerance survived and replicated. Over years and years the temperature slight increase was repeated many times and each time most died, but some survived. Eventually the colony was able to survive in significantly higher temperature environments that would kill it's non exposed counterparts.

 

2 groups of the same organism, 1 has adapted to suit a specialized environment that would kill the other.

 

It's not a fish into a monkey but it is evolution.

Edited by SIR ASHMAN

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I love these threads. I grew up in a catholic Irish family. You quickly learn (if you have a brain) that all religion is the biggest pile of fear mongering shit the world has ever seen. The people you see today are either "ooh I better say I believe in god so I dont go to hell and get arse raped by satan and his demons" or the mentally disabled/ex heroin junkies that need to believe in this stuff because their life is shit.

 

I think its truly sad that many parents force feed their children this trash; I have met many people over the years who live these terrified religious lives where they cant do this and that for fear of religious repercussions.

 

I do believe when childeren are young that you should tell them theres a man in the sky like santa but when they come of age you tell them the truth as way too many religious types use god as an excuse why they fail at life "hes testing me etc"

 

We had this 29 yr old bloke renting from us a few years back. I swear this guy was so religiously f**ked in the head it was insane. He was a super nice guy (ned flanders style) but he couldnt do anything because of jesus god etc.

 

Like he couldnt go and see a movie with us because one of the actors wasnt a christian or he couldnt have a beer because if his grandma knew she'd stop praying for him etc etc. He used to dress like in 1950's style clothing too because his grandma said that new hip clothes were sewn by evil etc etc.

 

He used to ask us why girls didnt like him (he was a virgin) and we politely told him that you freak the f**k outta them with all the jesus stuff. Imo a man like that is dangerous. imagine what could happen to him when he gets to the age of 50 or so and realises all of this hocus pocus he has been worshiping was a total crock of shit??

 

And in closing all religiously devout families I have met in my travels, coincidentally are the most f**ked up... Surprise surprise.

 

 

 

evolution...... you say keep it civil... surely there is gonna be some religious nutjob that tries to push their damn beliefs on us

Seems that most of the time its the other way around with the Athiest/Agnostic guys trying to push their beliefs on everyone else.

 

Atheists/Agnostics are the new Christians - wont be satisfied until everyone sees it their way

 

Yeah but at least they dont go invading peoples countries, rape and plunder all in the name of divine glory.

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snip

 

Creationists will just call that 'adaptation'. There's no winning with them :P

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if we evolved from apes...why are there still apes? why arnt we evolving? theory of evolution states creatures evolve into more efficient and better things...yet our bodies are still developing useless parts like appendix and wisdom tooth's since the dawn ages...

 

if you understand the theory of evolution by Charles darwin..he talks about selective genetics..

like an organ cannot live untill every single part of it is in place over time..so how does that happen? the animal just hangs onto the 'right' genes as time goes by and once all are developed..whoala it has an eye? how does selective genetics occur with a species that hasnt even got a brain like a slug?

 

theory of evolution also states dna in everything causes symmetric things. but snow flakes have no dna?

 

if one animal evolved and got wings and became a flying animal...then logically animal 1 to 2 would be made up of a huge series of complex 'middle' species to make up animal 2. ie 1.001 1.002 etc untill it got to the final animal 2. that being said...where are all the fossils of all these so called "evolved" animals? why is it that its mostly fossils of animal 1 and 2? its a complex thing to evolve into another and would take a huge amount of time AND generation/population...so where are these plethora of middle species that were evolving?

 

its too easy to jump on the anti God bandwagon and just say we evolved from germs because thats what makes most sense in your peanut brains. learn about creation...go and read what charles darwin have published and what people have refuted against him that he cannot answer back....because after all....theory of evolution is just a theory...because it can never be proven

 

i dont blame ppl who think we came from monkeys..i blame hollywood and schools. especially when they make movies/posters of monkeys with human eyes so subconsciously we are made to think we came from apes. or even more when we are shown artifacts of apes with human jaws attached to them so again we fall easily into what they say.

 

read a book, watch david attenborough and think to yourself how that complex species like a slug or insect evolved so perfectly?

 

with all that said, ofcourse i do beleive species can evolve to what they are capable according to what they are and their limits...but theory of evolution is just ridiculously stupid to say we just came from bacteria or whatever..

Edited by samsta

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I grew up an atheist. But now I believe in God. I've got a lot of reasons to believe in a higher power and not that many not too. I won't get into that now.

Everyone has the ability to choose. I never jam my beliefs down anyones throat.

Believe what u want but just make sure that when the time comes you stand upon what u believe.

Why I say that is because it's funny when people face a life and death situation how quickly they change their tune........

 

I personally have been in more than one life or death situation. And have not seen any reason to begin believing in imaginary friends.

 

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evolution

 

creationism has too many holes in it.

 

i have a physics degree. i believe in scientific method. i know scientific method has its flaws but i firmly believe its the best system we have. better than blind faith which creationism relies on.

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but then who created god? surely some has to have created him... if if so then who created the thing that created god and so on??

 

No, the christian belief is that God created all things that have a beginning in space and time. As God is outside space and time, he has existed forever and has no creator.

 

I love this argument. Essentially.

 

" God just is, so deal with it"

 

This comes from the same people who refuse to even consider that something (the universe) could come from "apparently" nothing (the Big Bang).

 

Hypocrites.

 

..................................................

 

I say "apparently" as the Big Bang Theory does not claim that the universe came from nothing.

 

It states that the Big Bang arose due to a point of infinite temperature, infinite pressure and infinite density (Ie: something - what this "something" is we can not know as it existed before our universe existed, and it is believed that no information from this "something" could have remained in our universe).

 

This point then reached a fundamental upper limit and resulted in an unimaginable release of pure energy called the Big Bang. It was at this instant that space, time and all the laws of physics were created.

 

This energy obeying the newly formed laws of physics arranged itself into quantum particles (or strings if you subscribe to string theory) which through natural interactions over time arranged themselves into sub atomic particles. These subatomic particles in turn eventually arranged themselves into hydrogen atoms.

 

From here gravity took over and began to draw hydrogen together into massive clouds, as the clouds got heavier they drew more hydrogen in, as more and more hydrogen was drawn in and compressed the temperature of the clouds rose, eventually the temperature and pressure reached a critical point where nuclear fusion began, and thus the very first stars were born. From here these stars converted hydrogen into helium through a process known as stellar nucleo-synthesis.

 

Successive generations of stars fused increasingly heavier elements together to produce all the naturally occurring elements (Yes the very carbon that you are made from was created inside a star).

 

I can't be bothered writing much more so a quick jump to the end:

 

The matter created by the stars guided by the laws of physics and gravity arranged itself into the universe that we observe today.

but then who created god? surely some has to have created him... if if so then who created the thing that created god and so on??

 

No, the christian belief is that God created all things that have a beginning in space and time. As God is outside space and time, he has existed forever and has no creator.

 

I love this argument. Essentially.

 

" God just is, so deal with it"

 

This comes from the same people who can not believe that something (the universe) could come from "apparently" nothing (the Big Bang).

 

Hypocrites.

 

wheres the evidence for the infinite density etc ?

 

I'm not saying anyone can prove Gods existence 100% , but its more plausible to me than not.

 

i called one of my teachers out on that so good when i was 10 :lol:

they said god is like a ring, he has no beginning and no end, i said "but someone made that ring", the teacher had no reply :lol:

 

Finding a flaw in your teachers poor analogy doesn't disprove God. ( and i think his point was a circle has no beginning or end, not literally a ring)

 

I've heard it put like this " Just say we discovered a bunch of spaceships on another planet, we would conlclude that "something" else made those right ? ... but then someone comes along and says BUT WAIT, who made the something ? ...so therefore the something doesn't exist?....." It just doesnt follow.

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But yet an invisible man(?) from a dimension we cannot see, without any proof other than a fairy tale book, did.

 

f**k science is stupid.

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can anyone explain the common sense of how there was nothing then the world started

what was there before, or can you make something out of nothing?

 

 

See here:

 

"One interesting source of anti-matter occurs in vacuum energy. While classical physics tends to believe that interstellar space is a true vacuum, with no matter present. Quantum mechanics allows for the possibility that "virtual" particle-antiparticle pairs can be created out of the vacuum. This particle-antiparticle pair can exist for a period of time limited by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Shortly after creation of this pair, they rejoin and annihilate each other."

 

http://aether.lbl.go...er_lecture.html

 

 

This leads me to think that the universe is an inevitable occurrence. As before the big bang, time didn't exist. Essentially, you have infinite time, so if you have a possibility of something, say there's a 1 in 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 possible chance that the big bang will occur, since time doesn't exist, it simply will occur. Creation of something from nothing can be explained by the above, currently, we know that particle-antiparticle pairs can be created out of nothing. This lends a lot of credibility to the idea of the big bang. If you have an infinite nothingness where time doesn't exist, if the probability that the big bang will occur is 1 in 1 x 10999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 years, well that simply doesn't matter, as time doesn't exist it simply happens. At least, that makes sense in my head.

 

 

 

Also, asking a question

Which do you beleive in? Evolution or creation

 

 

Makes about as much sense as asking the question: Which do you believe in? Light or santa claus?

Edited by bootlegapparel

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can anyone explain the common sense of how there was nothing then the world started

what was there before, or can you make something out of nothing?

 

i cant help but notice all the evolution people in the thread failed to read/respond to this..

 

the word evolution means:

 

1.

any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.

2.

a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research.

3.

Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.

4.

a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.

5.

a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine.

 

what does all that mean?? there had to be a start pointing from which things can evolve from..

 

so who/what made that starting point?? surely you evolution guys arent suggesting that something just "appeared" from nothing, because that is exactly what creationists get ridiculed over believing.. so what is it??

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can anyone explain the common sense of how there was nothing then the world started

what was there before, or can you make something out of nothing?

 

 

See here:

 

"One interesting source of anti-matter occurs in vacuum energy. While classical physics tends to believe that interstellar space is a true vacuum, with no matter present. Quantum mechanics allows for the possibility that "virtual" particle-antiparticle pairs can be created out of the vacuum. This particle-antiparticle pair can exist for a period of time limited by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Shortly after creation of this pair, they rejoin and annihilate each other."

 

http://aether.lbl.go...er_lecture.html

 

 

This leads me to think that the universe is an inevitable occurrence. As before the big bang, time didn't exist. Essentially, you have infinite time, so if you have a possibility of something, say there's a 1 in 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 possible chance that the big bang will occur, since time doesn't exist, it simply will occur. Creation of something from nothing can be explained by the above, currently, we know that particle-antiparticle pairs can be created out of nothing. This lends a lot of credibility to the idea of the big bang. If you have an infinite nothingness where time doesn't exist, if the probability that the big bang will occur is 1 in 1 x 10999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 years, well that simply doesn't matter, as time doesn't exist it simply happens. At least, that makes sense in my head.

 

 

 

Also, asking a question

Which do you beleive in? Evolution or creation

 

 

Makes about as much sense as asking the question: Which do you believe in? Light or santa claus?

 

alright shit, i didnt see bootlegs reply to that other post..

 

just to clarify though..

 

bootleg said

While classical physics tends to believe that interstellar space is a true vacuum, with no matter present. Quantum mechanics allows for the possibility that "virtual" particle-antiparticle pairs can be created out of the vacuum.

 

that word possibility there implies that there is no actual PROOF that something can occur from nothing, and once again i will point out, lack of PROOF is exactly what creationists get ridiculed about..

 

also, for the record.. i dont really know where i stand.. there might not be a god that wears a white coat and has a sweet beard, but who honestly knows how our universe was created.. maybe it is one big experiment being conducted by aliens like in that southpark episode, maybe not.. there is no definitive proof either way..

Edited by harris.

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but we are talking about a "God" creating humans, and how outrageous that idea is.. the exact same people that cite evolution as the reason humans are the way they are, and the scientific evidence behind it, then also understand that there must have been a point where there was just one single being, and then, before that, a time when there were no beings at all.. so what created that first initial being?

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if we evolved from apes...why are there still apes? why arnt we evolving? theory of evolution states creatures evolve into more efficient and better things...yet our bodies are still developing useless parts like appendix and wisdom tooth's since the dawn ages...

 

Well you see we did not evolve from apes. We are apes. Apes as a family evolved from a distant common ancestor.

 

Hominidae.PNG

 

As you can see from the diagram above in the past Humans (Homo), chimps (Pan) Gorillas and Orangutans (Pongo) which are all the Great Apes, split away from the Lesser Apes (Hylobates). Later on Orangutans split away from Us, chimps, and Gorillas. At a later point again gorillas split away from us and chimps, and then later again us and chimps split. Once split, each species continued on it's own evolutionary path separate from everything else. The evolutionary changes that occurred to each species depended on natural selection. We just happened to get lucky, some combinations of selection pressures in the past shaped our evolution and led us to the point we are at now.

 

The appendix has not evolved recently, it is believed to be an organ left over from a distant ancestor. It no longer serves a discernable purpose in us, but at some point in the past it would have been necessary for our ancestors. Wisdom teeth are a similar deal, they are a remnant of a distant ancestor used for grinding plant matter. As we have transitioned to eating meat as our primary source of food our jaws have shrunk (why? well everything costs energy, nature is good at eliminating things that cost energy to produce/maintain but serve no purpose) and thus our wisdom teeth have become a problem. We are still evolving, wisdom teeth is an example. Some people (myself included) do not possess wisdom teeth at all naturally. At a distant point in the future is highly likely that no human being will possess wisdom teeth.

 

if you understand the theory of evolution by Charles darwin..he talks about selective genetics..

like an organ cannot live untill every single part of it is in place over time..so how does that happen? the animal just hangs onto the 'right' genes as time goes by and once all are developed..whoala it has an eye? how does selective genetics occur with a species that hasnt even got a brain like a slug?

 

A quick google search for "selective genetics" showed no useful results on the first page. Though I have heard this theory (by another name) before.

 

The theory is basically that highly specialized parts like eyes appear to only function in their entirety thus could not have evolved in stages.

 

The bacterial flagellum is one that the creationists were pushing a while ago. I did watch a documentary on the subject some time ago and a scientific theory was offered.

 

I am struggling to remember exactly what is was, but I believe there was evidence that some components of the flagellum could have functioned like a very simple jet propulsion system, which over time could have specialized more and more until i became the flagellum we see today.

 

theory of evolution also states dna in everything causes symmetric things. but snow flakes have no dna?

 

I don't know where you got that from.

 

Nature does tend to create things symmetrically, but I don't recall any definition of evolution stating that dna alone is responsible for all symmetry in nature.

 

if one animal evolved and got wings and became a flying animal...then logically animal 1 to 2 would be made up of a huge series of complex 'middle' species to make up animal 2. ie 1.001 1.002 etc untill it got to the final animal 2. that being said...where are all the fossils of all these so called "evolved" animals? why is it that its mostly fossils of animal 1 and 2? its a complex thing to evolve into another and would take a huge amount of time AND generation/population...so where are these plethora of middle species that were evolving?

 

We do have transitional fossils.

 

However I believe you are expecting a separate fossil to represent each single minute change that links the 2 species together. As you said there are a huge number of transitional stages and a clear specimen of each stage is never going to be possible.

 

We are working with damaged fossils with degraded dna from millions of years ago, most of the stages that led to the new animal would have been on a genetic level and produced no visible differences between fossils. Since the dna is degraded we are unable to extract much from that either. So what we are left with is a handful of fossils that appear to illustrate a change from one creature to another but with large gaps in between. The minor changes that link these handful of fossils have long since been lost.

Edited by SIR ASHMAN

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Human evolution halted the moment we started society and began to alter our environment to suit ourselves.

 

The key part of evolution is survival of the fittest, and in order for that to take place people need to die. Once people began to find ways to circumvent death though making houses, farming and medicine, most of human evolution halted.

 

However there is one un-deniable example of human evolution, the great flu epidemic of 1918. Back then the common flu was deadly to humans, until the flu killed every human who was susceptible to it, leaving only the humans who were not so badly affected by it. We are all descendant of these tougher humans, which is why the common cold is nothing more than an annoyance to us now.

 

Religion is a construct of weak minds to protect themselves from a big scary universe full of death, evil and unfairness.

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Considering that evolution is still a theory we cant really be sure thought when I look around at all the amazing things in the world I find it hard to believe whatever it may be that there is not some higher power watching over us. The real problem is that evolution has flaws at its core like how the big bang happened at that point all we can do is guess and thats not scientific proof of anything so kind of a draw on my end looking at it logically guess we will all find out sooner or later.

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Considering that evolution is still a theory

 

Evolution is NOT a theory.

 

Richard Dawkins books explains this.

 

 

Sigh how many times to people have to make these threads.

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Satan put dinosaur bones in the ground to trick us god doesnt exist.

 

This is actually what religious people believe.

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Considering that evolution is still a theory we cant really be sure thought when I look around at all the amazing things in the world I find it hard to believe whatever it may be that there is not some higher power watching over us. The real problem is that evolution has flaws at its core like how the big bang happened at that point all we can do is guess and thats not scientific proof of anything so kind of a draw on my end looking at it logically guess we will all find out sooner or later.

 

Evolution is as much a "theory" as the "theory" of gravity. You are mis-using the term.

And evolution also has nothing to do with the big bang, 2 totally different concepts.

 

As for reference to holes in the story, have you looked at your religion lately, it makes the "holes" in evolution look microscopic in comparison.

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Religion is a construct of weak minds to protect themselves from a big scary universe full of death, evil and unfairness.

This

evolution !

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