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Is there a future working in IT in Aus?

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came across this news article yesterday

http://www.news.com.au/business/your-business/redundant-the-top-five-jobs-facing-extinction/story-fn9evb64-1226443880276

 

In the article it claims that those working in IT related fields within Australia will be soon made redundant as more and more companies will apparently outsource these jobs to countries such as India.

 

“The majority of all services can be provided remotely at a fraction of the cost,” he said.

An Indian computer programmer with three years experience would be paid about $6000 per annum whilst an Australian doing the same job would receive $75,000, he said.

“It’s an attractive option for many companies, however the impact on the lives of many Australians could be disastrous.”

Mr Pankhurst added that, until recently, only low-skill IT and accounting jobs – such as systems back-up and accounts payable/receivable – were being sent offshore.

“But we have seen an increasing trend for higher skilled jobs,” he said, with more IT programmers and designers and mid-high level financial controllers being sent overseas.

 

Personally I don't see it happening (at least not on the scale they're talking about), sure we may see some more trivial tasks outsourced but I don't really think companies would be foolish enough to trust mission critical systems and infrastructure to some Indian firm they found on Odesk...

 

Anyways, for those that work in IT, what do you think? Are all our jobs at risk?

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I f**king HOPE NOT!

 

I would seriously choke someone if the degree I am studying is deemed pointless. In saying that, I did a subject about off-shoring/outsourcing work and there are a hell of a lot of procedures and things to account for it's not as simple as saying "Hey do this work for us at 10% of the price". The price of getting work done over seas may be cheap but the process is long and costly and there is a massive risk that can come with it.

 

Outsourcing is good for a massive organisation that needs certain bits of work done such as code snippets but on a mass scale of most of the work done by another country is just not going to happen.

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I work for a small IT firm. we do outsourced support for small business (lawyers, doctors/medical practices, real estates etc). They obviously use our services because they cant afford a full time employee.

 

People will always need doctors and lawyers. doctors and lawyers will always need computers, and they will always need receptionists who are retarded and unknowingly unplug servers or routers or other equipment that we then need to fix on site.

 

Government bodies will also never outsource. they might employ no one but indians because they do it cheaper, but they will keep the jobs in Aus.

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I work in support side of things, if anything my billable hours keep going up with the amount of portable devices etc. to manage now. People blab on about kids being so tech savvy and devices becoming easier to use, but they aren't managing the backbone that makes them seem easy to use.

 

Government bodies will also never outsource. they might employ no one but indians because they do it cheaper, but they will keep the jobs in Aus.

Ya round here they have several levels of internal IT, then outsource 24/7 critical support and large infrastructure to local companies.

The only time I deal with anyone overseas is logging warranties and it's usually america anyway.

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Outsourcers are here to stay.

However i work in IT and i am not worried.

 

Outsourcing brings with it certain drawbacks that many companies are not willing to accept.

Also that article fails to take into account Australian based outsourcers like Telstra, IBM, Datacom and Fujitsu to name a few.

The IT industry has undergone a change from the days of cushy admin jobs on fat wages in the 80's and 90's. This change has led many doomsayers to become convinced that the IT market is overcrowded. The reality is that you simply have to justify your expenses now like every other department always has.

The golden age of IT is over, but it is still very much a lucritive industry for people who are smart and talented. Anybody who claims IT jobs are scarce are probably just bad candidates.

 

:edit:

Also i am yet to see an outsourcer who uses indian labour which does not have a reputation in the industry for hopelessly inadequate service. IBM is the worst for this.

Edited by Chappy

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I was working on couple of projects that were outsourced to India. I can say one thing - it would be cheaper to write whole thing inhouse than fixing the 'product' we received.

 

Few other things:

Outsourcing to India gets more expensive nowadays, so a lot of organizations(that decided to save some money and outsource) outsource to China or Philipins. Even if Indian IT worker charges 6k - it is not what consultancy charges for his work :)

 

Outsourcing internationally is hard because of time difference and lack of communication between local stakeholders and remote dev team(I'm not talking about call-center here)

 

A lot of work gets outsourced in my field, but it gets outsourced to local consultancies, meaning that the work still stays in Australia. Not trying to say that some work doesn't get outsourced to other countries though.

 

Saying that, contract rates didn't go up at all in at least 5 years....

 

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I was working on couple of projects that were outsourced to India. I can say one thing - it would be cheaper to write whole thing inhouse than fixing the 'product' we received.

THIS ^^^^

 

The recruiter is absolutely full of shit and the writer was fishing for a FUD article for hits. Anyone who's hired an offshore programmer for $3/hr will realise at the end of the project that he's been had. It may take a week, a month, maybe even 3 months, but there will come that time when he wants to add some functionality to it or change some small thing, then he finds out that the code is an absolute maze of obfuscated bullshit. Sure there's some good ones out there, but they're there to make the money so that they can leave wherever 'overseas' is and come to the west. My previous boss tried to get HTML written from a PSD that he made (he was a designer with no coding experience at all). Nothing complicated about it. The guy he hired failed miserably. It didn't even look close, not the same in any browser, an absolute fail.

 

Anyone who has to have a datacenter would NEVER run it offshore for many reasons. The first one is that it's f**king slow to get data over thousands of kilometers without huge pipes (expensive, if you can get them at all), the second one is that the networks for transferring data are generally shit/expensive/both. CDN's are a different ballgame.

 

Then there's the cultural differences, language differences (try Japlish in a middle eastern language), time zone differences, the list goes on.

 

I.T is very much safe in Australia for many many years to come.

 

ChiefStudly don't let your degree limit you btw. If you're learning how to code on Windows for example, teach yourself how to do it on Linux as well. What's your degree btw?

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Bachelor of Information Technology major in E-Business. Thanks for the advice, we mostly use C# for programming. I absolutely hate coding and will try to avoid it as much as I can. I know a fair bit and I am not too bad with it but I really have no joy in writing it.

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Few other things:

Outsourcing to India gets more expensive nowadays, so a lot of organizations(that decided to save some money and outsource) outsource to China or Philipins. Even if Indian IT worker charges 6k - it is not what consultancy charges for his work :)

 

That's true, India is starting to be considered less and less as a location for offshoring... China, Thailand, Phillipines, Vietnam are a few that are now considered better options.

 

And Chappy, you're right about IBM... They're offshoring to India is woeful. I worked in their infrastructure department, contracted out to Telstra, for nearly 3 years and had to deal with India daily... I wanted to off myself every day just to get away from having to deal with them.

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I work as a programmer and it's very underrated in terms of client-supplier communication. There's countless cases of people deciding to outsouce, the project taking 3 times longer than expected and not getting what they asked for.

 

We hired an indian student who just finished uni. He was hired to help me out with the workload and it seriously would have been better if I just did overtime. He has no sense of common sense and needed to be told every little detail. Even then is was usually wrong and I had to end up fixing it later on. I probably spent more time fixing his mistakes than it would take to do it myself from scratch. And then there was the documentation. Reading his emails and comments took longer than testing the actual code.

 

And to think he just graduation from uni.

 

Oh and never under estimate the power of the smell of curry. His laptop still smells like it a year later he left (wasn't called back).

Edited by steveP

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When we look for skilled workers - and Im talking experienced C++, QT, Oracle DBA's, qualified testers we have been severely struggling to find staff. So no, the article is full of crap.

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Many compaines I deal with have zero interest outsourcing overseas.

The same can be said for companies employing super-qualified migrants; unless they have clear English, zero interest.

 

The media constantly talks of the doom-and-gloom for the local IT professional, due to immigration and outsourcing. Rubbish.

Having interviewed candidates at my work, you would be astounded at the number of people with double-degrees and masters who are completely unemployable. I'll keep the stories to myself.

 

The more businesses deal with foreigners with bad English or conflicting culture, the less they want anything to do with them. Without even racking my brain, I can think of 6 businesses who will not employ Indians due to bad experiences (incompetence, lying during their interview, etc). Another will not employ anyone who has contact with their clients unless they are Australian (colour doesn't matter), as their clients have and will refuse to deal to them. I know of overseas clients of ours who outource support to Australia because their local support is useless, and a variety of local businesses who will never outsource overseas, or only ousource to western countries.

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Most points have already been discussed and I agree with the majority in that the article is obviously fishing for hits.

 

To paraphrase everything, there will always be idiots who can't get things to work. Tech support will always be viable and I know plenty of people that, upon getting an overseas support officer, will immediately hang up. Racist? Maybe so, but to be honest I find it hard to understand them when I'm working on projects with them at uni so over the phone with people who aren't tech savvy would likely lead to disaster.

 

I also find the biggest culprits for bullshit coding practices and dodgy shortcuts are the overseas students. It may be that they don't understand the project requirements but I've had a friend tell me the Asian guy in his group just took a whole bunch of HTML from a particular website and then claimed his section was complete. He literally left the copyright in and everything.

 

IT is also a growth industry. Whilst it seems, from people who've been in the industry longer, that the "golden age" is over, there is still significant growth and a shortage of jobs within the industry. IT comes second in needing new workers only next to mining/engineering and whilst the mining boom will dry up, technology won't.

Edited by keyhole150

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Having interviewed candidates at my work, you would be astounded at the number of people with double-degrees and masters who are completely unemployable. I'll keep the stories to myself.

 

Please share.

Any stories you have that can be viewed as racist (mostly by those who have not had the displeasure of cleaning up after one of them) can be sent to me in a PM.

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IT is also a growth industry. Whilst it seems, from people who've been in the industry longer, that the "golden age" is over, there is still significant growth and a shortage of jobs within the industry. IT comes second in needing new workers only next to mining/engineering and whilst the mining boom will dry up, technology won't.

 

Once upon a time you could make as much as one of the executives just by working as an admin. It was an unknown to most people doing the hiring.

These days there is a shortage of IT staff because there is a need for so damn many. Problem is people know what IT staff are worth these days so the pay is a little more down to earth.

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IT is also a growth industry. Whilst it seems, from people who've been in the industry longer, that the "golden age" is over, there is still significant growth and a shortage of jobs within the industry. IT comes second in needing new workers only next to mining/engineering and whilst the mining boom will dry up, technology won't.

 

Once upon a time you could make as much as one of the executives just by working as an admin. It was an unknown to most people doing the hiring.

These days there is a shortage of IT staff because there is a need for so damn many. Problem is people know what IT staff are worth these days so the pay is a little more down to earth.

 

Sounds glorious and I'm sad that I missed it. However, there are still plenty of 150k+ jobs kicking around for those with 5+ years in certain fields, usually networking or sys admins with a particular set of skills. Even the average entry wage, around 55k is pretty decent especially as this includes lower tier support jobs which often pay less.

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I am a VM Ware Specialist on a 120k Salary started of as just a DBA and did some training courses in VM Ware thru work.

 

Started of at 50k 3 years later now over doubled my inital salary :)

 

The IT industry will always be strong in Australia for many years.

 

Funny thing is i have a International Business degree which has zero I.T.

Most of the stuff i done was self taught and certifications.

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IT is also a growth industry. Whilst it seems, from people who've been in the industry longer, that the "golden age" is over, there is still significant growth and a shortage of jobs within the industry. IT comes second in needing new workers only next to mining/engineering and whilst the mining boom will dry up, technology won't.

 

Once upon a time you could make as much as one of the executives just by working as an admin. It was an unknown to most people doing the hiring.

These days there is a shortage of IT staff because there is a need for so damn many. Problem is people know what IT staff are worth these days so the pay is a little more down to earth.

 

Sounds glorious and I'm sad that I missed it. However, there are still plenty of 150k+ jobs kicking around for those with 5+ years in certain fields, usually networking or sys admins with a particular set of skills. Even the average entry wage, around 55k is pretty decent especially as this includes lower tier support jobs which often pay less.

Yeah there is still good money to be made, its just not as easy as it was.

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Having interviewed candidates at my work, you would be astounded at the number of people with double-degrees and masters who are completely unemployable. I'll keep the stories to myself.

 

Please share.

Any stories you have that can be viewed as racist (mostly by those who have not had the displeasure of cleaning up after one of them) can be sent to me in a PM.

+1 :D send them to me as well :D

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Depends which sector you're in also. Areas such as support and programming can get out sourced but a lot of other areas don't.

 

There are plenty of companies who will outsource due to the bean counters in head office only to realise it's actually costing them more and then in source again.

 

There are quite a lot of high paying / high demand IT jobs out there, you just have to get into them.

 

And in regards with the golden age, that's well and truly over. Those days (90s-early 00's) after each project completion the entire team would get sent out to all expenses paid dinners at 5-star restaurants, companies would buy the latest and greatest hardware/software because they could and would fly entire teams interstate just for some training/DR testing etc. While some of this still happens today nothing like what use to happen. A coworker was telling me how in the 90s the IT workers at the place he was working at use to literally get a blank cheque to buy whatever hardware they wanted. Unfortunately I missed out on those days and businesses now only see IT as an expense

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Having interviewed candidates at my work, you would be astounded at the number of people with double-degrees and masters who are completely unemployable. I'll keep the stories to myself.

Please share.

Any stories you have that can be viewed as racist (mostly by those who have not had the displeasure of cleaning up after one of them) can be sent to me in a PM.

+1 biggrin.png send them to me as well biggrin.png

 

Sorry, no can do. A few harmless interview stories should be ok though.

Keep in mind that these are for an IT role that requires a university degree as a minimum, explicitly states "Excellent spoken and written English".

I'm not singling out races either; for some reason no locals applied, and most were from China or India.

 

Had a Chinese guy in; 12 page resume (only skimmed through), good spelling and grammar, super-qualified, etc. He arrived and greeted us in horrendously broken English, then proceeded to thank us for the opportunity to work with xxxx company... which was a totally different business.

I have no idea how he achieved it, but he took the name of a product listed in the advert, added a bunch of characters to it, and somehow arrived at the conclusion that this was in fact the name of the company, despite the company name being written everywhere. Took more than a minute to explain this to him in a manner that he understood, the duration of which he looked confused and in disbelief. No job.

 

Another time a colleague and I called an Indian guy who met the requirements, apparently with 8 years product experience. When he answered we stated who/where/why we were calling, only to have him shout very loudly "Who dis why you call!". Explained it again, only to receive another "Helo helo who dis wat you want!". Eventually he understood, so my colleague introduced me, and I started asking some questions. Immediately he started shouting "Wat wat who is dis. Someone else is dere. I hear nother person. Hello. Hello!". I was introduced again and got the same response (at this point it was simply too funny to hang up). Finally he understood and I was able to raise my questions, but he couldn't answer even the most basic of my questions.

 

Although not an IT interview, it's still worth mentioning. When I was working at Target during Uni, one of the managers interviewed a girl for a role on the shop floor. He asked one of their standard questions "Was there ever a time in your life when you felt down or things were tough", presumably fishing for an upbeat personality. To quote the girl's exact response "There was a time I thought about killing myself". Okayyyyy. No job.

Edited by pmod

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dont study IT in college... such a waste of time, you graduate and everything you learnt is out of date. thats all i have to say.

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There is a very good reason to study IT in uni - getting a degree. It's probably not going to make you a better dev/BA/whoever but not having one will limit number of positions you can apply for since a lot of companies simply don't accept candidates without a relevant degree.

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dont study IT in college... such a waste of time, you graduate and everything you learnt is out of date. thats all i have to say.

If i had my time again, I'd definitely give this a go. I got nothing from my degree at all.

 

There is a very good reason to study IT in uni - getting a degree. It's probably not going to make you a better dev/BA/whoever but not having one will limit number of positions you can apply for since a lot of companies simply don't accept candidates without a relevant degree.

The hidden job market is far larger than the visible one. Start out small, work your way up. None of the big companies will employ a graduate anyway, unless you get really lucky, or you get used.

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dont study IT in college... such a waste of time, you graduate and everything you learnt is out of date. thats all i have to say.

If i had my time again, I'd definitely give this a go. I got nothing from my degree at all.

 

There is a very good reason to study IT in uni - getting a degree. It's probably not going to make you a better dev/BA/whoever but not having one will limit number of positions you can apply for since a lot of companies simply don't accept candidates without a relevant degree.

The hidden job market is far larger than the visible one. Start out small, work your way up. None of the big companies will employ a graduate anyway, unless you get really lucky, or you get used.

 

Not sure - it's been long time ago when I was junior :)

 

Either way if I had to pick a person out of two equally good candidates one with degree and the other one without - I'd get the one with degree. But obviously there are other factors too...

Edited by ru55kj

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I use programmers from overseas and locally - all depends on the project.

 

I am not worried at all, as client consultancy, marketing & project planning still is best done locally.

(same if i want to market to india, south america, china, usa i would source teams that are local to those areas)

 

From a broader look across the IT industry i think that the growth of this sector / how quickly technology changes and needs to be upgraded far outweighs the amount of work going off shore.

 

As long as technology keeps evolving IT is still a good industry to be in, and if your a entrepreneur it is still IMO one of the best industries to make big coin.

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As long as technology keeps evolving IT is still a good industry to be in, and if your a entrepreneur it is still IMO one of the best industries to make big coin.

 

Or you've got enough money to buy out patents to sue everyone else with...

 

Apple/Google/Samsung/Oracle/etc......

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There is a very good reason to study IT in uni - getting a degree. It's probably not going to make you a better dev/BA/whoever but not having one will limit number of positions you can apply for since a lot of companies simply don't accept candidates without a relevant degree.

 

This depends on what you want to do with your I.T Career, If you want to work in the Technical/Engineering/Administration point of view and sit on the techy bench then a Degree is not as valuable.

I work as a Network Administrator and for me doing a Degree at the moment serves no gain for me if i was to go between any Network Administrator role Australia wide im ranked based on my Microsoft Certifications/Cisco Certifications and what i know from a technical standpoint.

 

But i do understand for me to move into a Managing point of view then i would be moreso looked at my Degree's which really dont exist since i went straight out of I.T Tafe courses to an I.T based job.

 

I tell alot of people that depending what you want to do you dont NEED a degree to get a job role in I.T if all you want to do is work tech at the start, But many people go on do 5years of Uni then go on to work the next 10-15years as a Tech..

Edited by antonioシ

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I'm a senior java dev/tech lead myself and I normally browse through seek.com.au quite often.

 

A lot of positions require degree - almost none require certification. But I guess it depends on what part of IT you are in.

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