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Shakey Bones

Do You Consider Holden And Ford Australian?

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they're good for one thing

 

burnouts.

 

At least until they break, which they often do.

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they're good for one thing

 

burnouts.

 

At least until they break, which they often do.

 

funny enough, my 1st RWD car was a VN commodore, nothing broke except:

  • fuel pump
  • crank angle sensor
  • coil packs
  • alternator
  • power steering pump (twice in 2 years)
  • welded up diff
  • front z bar (wannabe castor rod that's poorly engineered to be a boat anchor)

still has less shit broken than my old 180SX

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Firstly, I just want to disclose that I do work for Holden. Although I haven't been there very so I don't know everything about the company but from what I do know Holden has a very proud history which streches over the last 50 years at least. So to answer the question of the topic, yes I do think Holden is Australian.

 

Everybody has their own opinion and that's fair enough, but Holden is a very proud company and has managed to achieve alot in it's history. More recently they've engineered and built a platform from the ground up for the VE and Camaro. The Camaro was a huge program for Holden and testiment to the capability that the engineering team has to excecute a very important and succesful program for Chevy and General Motors.

 

Everybody talks about what a waste it is that tax payers money goes to Holden, but here's a fact that I bet many of you didn't know. Yes Holden has received about $2 Billion is subsidies over the past 12 years, but it has also spent $37 Billion over that same time frame. It's paid for wages that also ends up back in the government via tax, it's supported suppliers and has helped retain jobs. Sure everybody wants a self sustaining business that can run on its own, however other countries around the world need it as much as Holden and the Australian automotive industry does. Australia invests less per capita than most other countries around the world that have an automotive industry (America, Germany, Sweden etc) so it is vital to a country that wants to have manufacturing capabilities.

 

Not many people you speak to at Holden would be proud to call some the products that we've sold over the past few years as their own, and that's something that improving daily. What the Cruze has been lacking in the past has been greatly improved by the local powertrain team in the new product. The new VF is great too, but the market place speaks for itself at the moment.

 

I'm sure there are many counter arguments to what I've stated above, but the fact is the industry is linked to many other things as well. Jobs will be the biggest hit, it won't just be employees of Holden, it's the suppliers who suffer, the dealers and service techs and logistics people.

 

I just hope people understand that it's not that black or white.

 

Well that's my rant, thanks for listening.

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YLD200, please explain why having manufacturing capabilities is worth propping up a dying industry?

 

Whatever the country loses in jobs it would gain in dropped car prices once the government no longer has to tax the shit out of imports to make local cars more competitive.

 

And i'm sure Holden's history is very proud, as with many other companies they can be as proud as they want to be about their history, doesn't change the fact that they are about as 'Australian' as Toyota.

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The only real problem as far as I can see with all this manufacturing nonsense is that when our dollar drops (if it does...) we're gonna get boned hard.

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I want to be polite, but your argument is bad. Holden started life making saddles in 1856, in 1908 they started auto trimming, 1917 started making car shells and supplying them to GM for use with their Australian chassis, then GM bought them in 1931 and the new company GM Holden made actual cars.

 

Holden weren't a car manufacturer until they became foreign owned 83 years ago. How the hell is that considered an Australian company?

 

As for the spending in wages, taxes and materials... how is that something anyone should get excited about? Their income primarily comes from the Aussie public and a few foreign exports like the UAE, and the same could be said about ANY other manufacturing business operating in Australia. Buys materials, pays wages, pays taxes, etc. It's entirely normal for the money to circle around, and Holden are not in any way being philanthropic.

 

The difference here that pisses people off is that whilst that 37 billion is the result of the usual manufacturing money cycle - in which everyone gets a cut of the pie - the 2 billion they got in public funds (i.e. tax money) is entirely external to that cycle; Holden didn't have to make anything or pay anyone to achieve that profit. Suppose they were making $10k net profit per car (highly unlikely), they would have to sell 100,000 cars to the public to gain that same 2 billion, meaning there would be more cars on the second-hand market and subsequently more spare parts. The people would benefit. As it is, they had to sell ZERO cars to achieve that, so whilst the public collectively paid the money, they got jack all to show for it. What makes it worse is that since the business is foreign-owned, the freebie funds can be siphoned offshore at any moment.

 

So in summary:

  • 'GM Holden' is foreign company
  • Been a foreign company for over 80 years
  • Weren't making cars until they were a foreign company
  • Most of the cars they sell are made by a foreign company
  • Most of the parts they use are made by foreign companies
  • They need Australian Tax Payer Dollars to stay afloat, which is not in the best interest of the public as a whole

Personally, I see nothing Aussie there, and even less to be proud of; it's just another business the same as all the other businesses. I will also say that having driven and thrashed a Camaro in the US, although I still love the look of it and would buy one if I lived there, ergonomically speaking it's a massive bucket of crap to drive. Big chassis, awkward paddle shifters, awkward dash, awkward gauges, awkward buttons and zero visibility through the chop top roof and gunslit windows.

Edited by pmod

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Would also like to point out that the ford 4L has it's roots in an American 6 cylinder engine originally designed in 1941, and Ford Aus have just modified as new models came out since the 60's.

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PMOD pretty much hit the nail on the head.

 

However for people like YLD200 please dont think this thread is a Holden or Ford bashing thread. What both companies and Toyota and Mitsubishi do for this countries manufacturing industry should not knocked or disregarded they are very important companies for Australia. However that doesn't make them Australian any more than Toyota or Mitsubishi are.

 

Lets put it this say how many people call (or consider) their S15s and S14s a 200sx and how many call them (consider them) and Silvia? You can call a S14 or S15 whatever you want it is still a Silvia. The same way as Holden is just rebranded GM in Australia.

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Seriously though, why is having the ability to manufacture cars in Australia a good thing?

If it does nothing but drain public funding is it really worth it?

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as a Ford employee i might jump on yld200's bandwagon

 

Ford just developed the new ranger chassis in Australia.

That has kept me employed for the last 5 years. The money that has been spent designing that chassis in Aus would be huge. From trips around the country, machining of parts, prototype parts built at engineering joints around aus.

 

We out source alot and i am 1 employee of about 300 mechanics + engineers + sparky's + cleaners + office workers etc etc and that is just the people employed by ford not too mention the contract work that gets shipped out.

 

all of these people spend wages buying grocery's, appliances, fuel etc etc and pay tax on all of it

 

 

Would also like to point out that the ford 4L has it's roots in an American 6 cylinder engine originally designed in 1941, and Ford Aus have just modified as new models came out since the 60's.

 

Every engine made has its roots in a previous internal combustion engine....

Ford Australia has modified that engine for 50 years it is more australian now than ever...

 

Lastly more than 50% of a falcon is made in Australia so its more aussie than not!

 

Not too mention a factory in broadmeadows and in geelong with another 500-1000 workers who do the same

 

The drain on centrelink when all these people directly and indirectly end up on the dole....

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So by your reasoning skedy, Toyota is just as Australian as Ford because it also makes cars in Australia.

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The drain on centrelink when all these people directly and indirectly end up on the dole....

 

All aboard the assumption train!

 

One industry collapses and another gets created. People move to different vocations all the time, and many of those employees may even head overseas, reducing the cost overhead to support the populace. The reality is that were all the businesses here foreign-owned, money would gradually flow out of the economy, despite whatever taxes were paid or jobs generated. The only businesses that genuinely help the economy are those that are locally owned, and export products overseas. That draws money from other people's economies into ours, versus our money trickling back to theirs.

 

This is where there's a huge issue with mining; the businesses are foreign-owned, but selling natural resources belonging to the Australian people. Irrespective of the tax paid, or jobs created, ultimately our land is becoming a revenue generator for another country that could not achieve the same with their own land.

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Not to mention how many workers in the automotive industry could easily transition into the mining business.

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Oi Skedy, convince your bosses to remake the XA GT and then Ford will never have to worry about money problems ever again. (I can wish)

 

This topic should be more compartmentalised.

 

1. As topic states.

 

2. Is this good or bad thing to hold onto Auto Manufacturing for the Australian economy, given the borderline recession/depression climate.

 

3. What will be the impact if our Auto Manufacturing sector goes arse up

 

4. In 50 words or less what could be done to improve the saleability of Australian produced vehicles. (and would this solve the problem? if not see 5)

 

5. Can the Auto Manufacturing (and sales/service) sector be made more efficient.

Edited by TheApothecary

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Oi Skedy, convince your bosses to remake the XA GT and then Ford will never have to worry about money problems ever again. (I can wish)

This topic should be more compartmentalised.

 

1. As topic states.

Not Australian, although Aussies do work there. Aussies also work at McDonalds and KFC, quite surprisingly.

 

2. Is this good or bad thing to hold onto Auto Manufacturing for the Australian economy, given the borderline recession/depression climate.

There's nothing good about it if we have to keep handing a foreign entity pocket money to keep it running, and they really only have one Aussie car in either marques lineup.

 

3. What will be the impact if our Auto Manufacturing sector goes arse up

- Lots of people will start filling the currently unpopular sectors (e.g. talk to a plumber about how easy it is to get people into the industry)

- Fewer "skilled" migrants will be encouraged to come here and bring their entire extended family to the apartment below mine, stinking the place out and slamming shut every f**king door they have 24/7

- The Government will likely drop the current system of written-off cars not being granted reregistration, opening up more repair business and giving business opportunities to displaced Forlden workers

- Import restrictions will probably become less strict, making Forlden dealers move into the car importation arena

- Hopefully the Government gets involved in mining and taxes the shit out of the current businesses operating in that sector, bringing them in line with all the other businesses and sectors they tax the shit out of, creating new jobs and possibly spiking a boom in infrastructure creation in WA.

 

4. In 50 words or less what could be done to improve the saleability of Australian produced vehicles. (and would this solve the problem? if not see 5)

Stunt development of the Falcon/Commodore and drastically extend production runs of the current models (at least 10 years a run) to supply industry (e.g. taxis). Focus all R&D work on smaller vehicles, like a small or midsized 4cyl Falcon/Commodore.

 

5. Can the Auto Manufacturing (and sales/service) sector be made more efficient.

Fewer shitkunts would be a brilliant start.

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So by your reasoning skedy, Toyota is just as Australian as Ford because it also makes cars in Australia.

Yeah it is. i never said that it wasnt. the only difference is how long both of these companies have been here. I am arguing for my job in the auto industry not if Ford is aussie as it isn't.

 

Ford Australia has an extremely strong heritage in Australia. The falcon nameplate is the longest running nameplate in the world, Ford sponsoring the cats is the longest running sports sponsorship as well....

 

Ford has heritage but that is it. Its no more aussie than vegemite or tim tams are

 

and Chappy i don't want to work in a mine. The money is great but everyone i have known to go over there ends up back here after 6-12 months

 

XA? I'd rather my Dad's old XY. Bright purple, 351, 9 inch etc etc and drum brakes haha

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Oi Skedy, convince your bosses to remake the XA GT and then Ford will never have to worry about money problems ever again. (I can wish)

This topic should be more compartmentalised.

 

1. As topic states.

Not Australian, although Aussies do work there. Aussies also work at McDonalds and KFC, quite surprisingly.

 

Completely agree. Ford and GM Holden have been here a very long time. Hence why people think they are aussie

 

2. Is this good or bad thing to hold onto Auto Manufacturing for the Australian economy, given the borderline recession/depression climate.

There's nothing good about it if we have to keep handing a foreign entity pocket money to keep it running, and they really only have one Aussie car in either marques lineup.

 

Disagree. I don't think you guys realise how many people the industry employs. it is a billion dollar industry that could be lost overnight.

 

3. What will be the impact if our Auto Manufacturing sector goes arse up

- Lots of people will start filling the currently unpopular sectors (e.g. talk to a plumber about how easy it is to get people into the industry)

- Fewer "skilled" migrants will be encouraged to come here and bring their entire extended family to the apartment below mine, stinking the place out and slamming shut every f**king door they have 24/7

- The Government will likely drop the current system of written-off cars not being granted reregistration, opening up more repair business and giving business opportunities to displaced Forlden workers

- Import restrictions will probably become less strict, making Forlden dealers move into the car importation arena

- Hopefully the Government gets involved in mining and taxes the shit out of the current businesses operating in that sector, bringing them in line with all the other businesses and sectors they tax the shit out of, creating new jobs and possibly spiking a boom in infrastructure creation in WA.

 

thousands of people can't become overnight as it takes an apprenticeship. do you think a mid 40's male wants to do an apprenticeship again? they have mortgages, kids etc etc

4 years on shit wages i dont think so.....

 

NSW just changed the law so written off cars can't be registered they won't change it back due to the rebirthing problem it causes.

 

i would love to see import regs relaxed. we both know they wont be. luxury car tax may be dropped a bit but that would be about it.

 

The govt is trying (and failing) at that now. it doesnt need the auto industry too fail to help it

 

4. In 50 words or less what could be done to improve the saleability of Australian produced vehicles. (and would this solve the problem? if not see 5)

Stunt development of the Falcon/Commodore and drastically extend production runs of the current models (at least 10 years a run) to supply industry (e.g. taxis). Focus all R&D work on smaller vehicles, like a small or midsized 4cyl Falcon/Commodore.

 

FG came out in 2008, VE came out in 2006 and lasted through till this year. 7 years is a long time for a car. 180sx' was lucky to last 9 years it's almost unheard off for a car last 10 years as styles change.

 

Ford already build a 4 cyl falcon and a liquid phase injection car that is cheaper to run than a corolla. A new car won't save either falcon or commodore they are both doomed!

 

5. Can the Auto Manufacturing (and sales/service) sector be made more efficient.

Fewer shitkunts would be a brilliant start.

 

hahah yes there are many shit *milkshakes* lol

 

Edited by skedy

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speaking of LCT, what a f**king joke. $60,000 is not a luxury car. $60,000 is a shitty wannabe 4wd. A BMW 7 series is a luxury car. It is a bit over $200k.

 

It's like having a Sports Car Tax and taxing all Kia's.

Edited by pyro

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yes luxury car tax is a joke

 

$55k is the limit i think? and you get taxed mega on anything over that. maybe 20-30 years ago that was a luxury car.... now not so much

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Sorry but the XA/XB GT is the best Australian coupe of all time (perhaps on par with the HK GTS / LJ GTR-XU1).

 

438473-vf-commodore.jpg

Pic of VF Commodore just because.

 

Don't forget though that back in the day the "classic cars" (as we know them now) were beyond dirt cheap, even brand new.

 

Topic amendment:

 

6. Does/Did Bathurst have that much of an impact that it directly effected car sales?

Edited by TheApothecary

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last 2 thirds are VE commodore and front third is a Merc ?

 

I like it more than the VE.

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Hsv gts are supercharged!

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that vf might look classy without the spoiler on the back

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VF SSV Ute at Nurburgring!

 

Holden-VF-Commodore-Ute-SS-1.jpg

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Whatever the country loses in jobs it would gain in dropped car prices once the government no longer has to tax the shit out of imports to make local cars more competitive.

How does that put food on the table for those 1,000's of workers?

 

Everyone knows the mining industry is not sustainable, so thats a short term solution.

 

When the car makers and mining are gone from Australia we are going to have a lot of half skilled workers twiddling their thumbs. Possibly looking at YOUR job

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Mining would be more sustainable if they didnt tax the shit out of it its the only thing we have at the moment

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